Woolwich soldier killed (was "Did cops just shoot 2 dead in woolwich?")

[Delroy Booth]

Was having a conversation with a mate a while back about this sort of stuff and she said something along the lines of "with all the discrimination against jews around the world it's a wonder no jewish people have done something like 9/11."

it's disturbing how this kind of thing has become, not acceptable obviously, but like an understandable response, like something people might do in response to religious persecution and you wonder why people haven't done it as opposed to why they did. Its no reflection on her because i've wondered that exact thing myself before, just on the state of society. It scares the fucking shit out of me. How the fuck did we get to this point?

Y'know I had the exact same feeling with the attempted terrorist attack in dewsbury against the EDL, I remember thinking the first time I saw the EDL on the street that some maniac Michael Stone type attack with a few grenades and a pistol could cause a hell of a lot of damage here.

 

[frogwoman]

Have we ever not been at this point?

well yeah but i just find it all depressing and horrible, also i can empathise with the feelings a bit more than i'd like, i'd like to say that i dont understand why people become terrorists or whatever but i think i do to some extent, although i don't understand how anyone can stand there and kill somebody and not have any remorse. sorry.

 

[JimW]

Y'know I had the exact same feeling with the attempted terrorist attack in dewsbury against the EDL, I remember thinking the first time I saw the EDL on the street that some maniac Michael Stone type attack with a few grenades and a pistol could cause a hell of a lot of damage here.

But then you couldn't source the grenades?

 

[butchersapron]

Y'know I had the exact same feeling with the attempted terrorist attack in dewsbury against the EDL, I remember thinking the first time I saw the EDL on the street that some maniac Michael Stone type attack with a few grenades and a pistol could cause a hell of a lot of damage here.

Didn't know you liked performance art delboy.

 

[JimW]

Didn't know you liked performance art delboy.

We used to have a pic for this one.

 

[butchersapron]

We used to have a pic for this one.

We still do (little small though):

 

[manny-p]

So on this thread.

We have seen many people with what I feel have sound political views take an overly emotional/kneejerk stance on the killing of a soldier who many have described as 'innocent' without knowing if he has committed any crime in Iraq and Afghanistan. This guy who could have butchered children has been held up as some type of hero.

Many have attacked me and even told me to join the jihadis because I questioned whether he was a legitimate target militarily. I for one am glad they decided to attack military targets instead of the everyone is too blame 7/7 style attacks on innocent people.

Many have took the stance that the killing is more abhorrent because it was in a quite suburban area and in their back yard and not in the battlefields of afghanistan.

Funnily enough this was the same position many on the left took after the IRA were picking off squaddies in the UK during the troubles.

Many have called the killing cowardly yet harldy anyone has commented on the 'cowardly' attacks which place in Afghanistan and elsewhere. Dropping a bomb on civilians and weddings, drone strikes on villages etc.

Some have applauded the skills of the armed police unit who managed to shot one of the killers before he attacked them. These are the same armed police units that murdered jean charles de menezes and countless other innocent people.

Is this a fair assessment? Btw I do not condone what happened to him and I am not a Jihadi. I think what happened was a political murder.

 

[Streathamite]

Well, I see where you're coming from, but I'd still go with butchers' "kiddy cowardice" line, and I'm reminded of something Umberto Eco said in a different context:

The real hero is always a hero by mistake; he dreams of being an honest coward like everybody else. If it had been possible he would have settled the matter otherwise, and without bloodshed. He doesn't boast of his own death or of others'. But he does not repent. He suffers and keeps his mouth shut; if anything, others then exploit him, making him a myth, while he, the man worthy of esteem, was only a poor creature who reacted with dignity and courage in an event bigger than he was.

terrrific quote

 

[frogwoman]

I didn't say i thought it was more abhorrent, I think what we edit: not we, the ruling class are doing in afghanistan is completely disgraceful, we should not be there.

All I'm saying is that I think a different motivation is going on apart from the "war" one.

 

[cyprusclean]

although i don't understand how anyone can stand there and kill somebody and not have any remorse. sorry.

And the way that they killed him.

 

[ddraig]

Cowed? WTF? And while I don't agree with LBJs argument at least he presents one,whereas you just seem to want to demonstrate what a little gobshyte you can be.

i was using Dave's word, and i'm a gobshite for disagreeing with you? do one

 

[manny-p]

I didn't say i thought it was more abhorrent, I think what we are doing in afghanistan is completely disgraceful, we should not be there.

All I'm saying is that I think a different motivation is going on apart from the "war" one.

I'm not talking about you there frogwoman.

 

[The39thStep]

Are you saying if I said it in the pub I would get a kicking because it is unpopular? If so you seem to be happy I would. So youse can keep your over emotional outrage at a squaddie getting killed in the street. He was in the military for 7 years, I wonder how many folk he killed out in Iraq and Afghanistan many of whom were innocent. Did he perhaps help to call in an airstrike on a position which had little kids in it who after the airstrike were unidentifiable and just bits of skin and bones?

I must say I am impressed with your ability to read my mind. Probably second to the greatest mind reader of all time







Anyway in between cheering on opening up the second front for Islamists test out your hypothesis not just in the pub but at work, parties, whilst shopping , nip down the local mosque even ?

 

[Stigmata]

This guy who could have butchered children has been held up as some type of hero.

He probably didn't though did he

 

[manny-p]

He probably didn't though did he

How the fuck do you know?

 

[telbert]

The nature of warfare, whether it's perceived or actual warfare, is that you do what is necessary to get the job done. If they'd had assault rifles or an smg, I've no doubt they'd have shot him, rather than running him over. The beheading, as post-mortem beheadings usually are, was symbolic. Value-judgements like "cowardly" and "savage" are meaningless in assessing what was done and why, they're just emotion-fueled flatulence for the outraged. Analyse what has occurred, then give rein to your emotions, otherwise you're little better than the wankers on your TV screen who're currently playing this for their own advantage, because you're allowing them to play you.

Unfortunately for this young man,i suspect warfare was far from his mind as he was walking along a London street, on his own,out of uniform and completely unarmed.If the cicumstances were different,even slightly,i doubt these cowards would have done what they did.There are plenty of oppotunities for this sort of attack in london where the victim would stand more than a zero chance of fighting back.It was a "soft"target.You know it, i know it and they knew it.And please dont use the fact that they ran at the O.B. when they turned up as an example of their outstanding bravery.Their target was a Soldier.An unarmed one.

 

[manny-p]

I must say I am impressed with your ability to read my mind. Probably second to the greatest mind reader of all time







Anyway in between cheering on opening up the second front for Islamists test out your hypothesis not just in the pub but at work, parties, whilst shopping , nip down the local mosque even ?

Oh btw don't answer any of the other questions.

 

[ViolentPanda]

whatever the case its quite likely these guys used those types of videos as a means of building up the mental capacity to carry the attack out .

Doesn't really work like that unless it's part of a regimented programme of desensitisation, and even then (as armies the world around find out every time new recruits first go into action) the indoctrination doesn't always take.

 

[JimW]

So on this thread.

We have seen many people with what I feel have sound political views take an overly emotional/kneejerk stance on the killing of a soldier who many have described as 'innocent' without knowing if he has committed any crime in Iraq and Afghanistan. This guy who could have butchered children has been held up as some type of hero.

Many have attacked me and even told me to join the jihadis because I questioned whether he was a legitimate target militarily. I for one am glad they decided to attack military targets instead of the everyone is too blame 7/7 style attacks on innocent people.

Many have took the stance that the killing is more abhorrent because it was in a quite suburban area and in their back yard and not in the battlefields of afghanistan.

Funnily enough this was the same position many on the left took after the IRA were picking off squaddies in the UK during the troubles.

Many have called the killing cowardly yet harldy anyone has commented on the 'cowardly' attacks which place in Afghanistan and elsewhere. Dropping a bomb on civilians and weddings, drone strikes on villages etc.

Some have applauded the skills of the armed police unit who managed to shot one of the killers before he attacked them. These are the same armed police units that murdered jean charles de menezes and countless other innocent people.

Is this a fair assessment? Btw I do not condone what happened to him and I am not a Jihadi. I think what happened was a political murder.

I think it was a political murder too and like you am relieved they seem to have practised some sort of targeting. But the politics are fucking abhorrent, both in terms of overall ideology and the justification of yourself as detached radical committing an attentat, just as they were for the RAF etc and other groups who I might have been closer to in overall terms. Sorry for the victim because in this context he's more the young lad with a kid than a squaddie; that part of his identity comes to the fore when he's actually war-fighting. That sympathy comes from exactly the same place as the horror I feel thinking of families blown apart by coalition bombs in Afghanistan, including blokes who may have taken a potshot at Western forces.

 

[laptop]

Many have took the stance that the killing is more abhorrent because it was in a quite suburban area and in their back yard and not in the battlefields of afghanistan.

Funnily enough this was the same position many on the left took after the IRA were picking off squaddies in the UK during the troubles.

I think we can conclude that the attack has "intimidate[d] the public or a section of the public" - people are reacting from fear. Including those who might be expected to have an analysis.

 

[The39thStep]

Oh btw don't answer any of the other questions.

Seeing as you don't know the answers and I don't its a bit meaningless and even if we did know it won't have been the reason that he was singled out from any other soldier.

 

[manny-p]

Seeing as you don't know the answers and I don't its a bit meaningless

 

[frogwoman]

I think it was a political murder too and like you am relieved they seem to have practised some sort of targeting. But the politics are fucking abhorrent, both in terms of overall ideology and the justification of yourself as detached radical committing an attentat, just as they were for the RAF etc and other groups who I might have been closer to in overall terms. Sorry for the victim because in this context he's more the young lad with a kid than a squaddie; that part of his identity comes to the fore when he's actually war-fighting. That sympathy comes from exactly the same place as the horror I feel thinking of families blown apart by coalition bombs in Afghanistan, including blokes who may have taken a potshot at Western forces.

Well said.

 

[JimW]

Well said.

Don't encourage me, might go to my head and before you know it I'm the next Owen Jones/Laurie Penny.

 

[telbert]

So on this thread.

We have seen many people with what I feel have sound political views take an overly emotional/kneejerk stance on the killing of a soldier who many have described as 'innocent' without knowing if he has committed any crime in Iraq and Afghanistan. This guy who could have butchered children has been held up as some type of hero.

Many have attacked me and even told me to join the jihadis because I questioned whether he was a legitimate target militarily. I for one am glad they decided to attack military targets instead of the everyone is too blame 7/7 style attacks on innocent people.

Many have took the stance that the killing is more abhorrent because it was in a quite suburban area and in their back yard and not in the battlefields of afghanistan.

Funnily enough this was the same position many on the left took after the IRA were picking off squaddies in the UK during the troubles.

Many have called the killing cowardly yet harldy anyone has commented on the 'cowardly' attacks which place in Afghanistan and elsewhere. Dropping a bomb on civilians and weddings, drone strikes on villages etc.

Some have applauded the skills of the armed police unit who managed to shot one of the killers before he attacked them. These are the same armed police units that murdered jean charles de menezes and countless other innocent people.

Is this a fair assessment? Btw I do not condone what happened to him and I am not a Jihadi. I think what happened was a political murder.

Yes your right, no one knows if he committed any crimes in Iraq or Afghanistan.No one knows if he butchered any children.Until recently no one knew if he had even been to those places.In fact no one was certain he was even a soldier.Including you. But then you'd already come to your own conclussion that he must be, and must have done all of these things. And you talk of an overly emotional/kneejerk stance?Shame on you.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Services people: during the Gulf War we stayed with my ex-BiL on Akrotiri for a few weeks. During that time he had to do/warn us about day to day stuff. At one point, he had to carry out a series of checks for car bombs before each time we got in the car, whether on base or not, even after quickly going into a shop. Surely this must apply here, on this base. Were they lax?

Not sure about Woolwich, but a lot of barracks etc, it's private sector security, and it is shite.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think it was a political murder too and like you am relieved they seem to have practised some sort of targeting. But the politics are fucking abhorrent, both in terms of overall ideology and the justification of yourself as detached radical committing an attentat, just as they were for the RAF etc and other groups who I might have been closer to in overall terms. Sorry for the victim because in this context he's more the young lad with a kid than a squaddie; that part of his identity comes to the fore when he's actually war-fighting. That sympathy comes from exactly the same place as the horror I feel thinking of families blown apart by coalition bombs in Afghanistan, including blokes who may have taken a potshot at Western forces.

Agree totally.

 

[butchersapron]

So on this thread.

We have seen many people with what I feel have sound political views take an overly emotional/kneejerk stance on the killing of a soldier who many have described as 'innocent' without knowing if he has committed any crime in Iraq and Afghanistan. This guy who could have butchered children has been held up as some type of hero.

Many have attacked me and even told me to join the jihadis because I questioned whether he was a legitimate target militarily. I for one am glad they decided to attack military targets instead of the everyone is too blame 7/7 style attacks on innocent people.

Many have took the stance that the killing is more abhorrent because it was in a quite suburban area and in their back yard and not in the battlefields of afghanistan.

Funnily enough this was the same position many on the left took after the IRA were picking off squaddies in the UK during the troubles.

Many have called the killing cowardly yet harldy anyone has commented on the 'cowardly' attacks which place in Afghanistan and elsewhere. Dropping a bomb on civilians and weddings, drone strikes on villages etc.

Some have applauded the skills of the armed police unit who managed to shot one of the killers before he attacked them. These are the same armed police units that murdered jean charles de menezes and countless other innocent people.

Is this a fair assessment? Btw I do not condone what happened to him and I am not a Jihadi. I think what happened was a political murder.

Maybe, manny, you should ask yourself why so many people with politics that you consider to be sound are saying what they're saying.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Not just the insurgent side. Mutilation of bodies/torture is standard practise among soldiers in occupying armies too - there's abundant evidence for that. Asymmetric warfare = atrocities are a certainty.

Fair point.

 

[JHE]

Well, I see where you're coming from, but I'd still go with butchers' "kiddy cowardice" line, and I'm reminded of something Umberto Eco said in a different context:

The real hero is always a hero by mistake; he dreams of being an honest coward like everybody else. If it had been possible he would have settled the matter otherwise, and without bloodshed. He doesn't boast of his own death or of others'. But he does not repent. He suffers and keeps his mouth shut; if anything, others then exploit him, making him a myth, while he, the man worthy of esteem, was only a poor creature who reacted with dignity and courage in an event bigger than he was.

The question of who Eco or you or anyone else thinks is a hero is entirely separate from the question of whether the killers in Woolwich are brave. For Eco it seems courage is part of what makes a hero, but only part. For some others, a hero may be defined by footballing skills or dancing skills or a good voice or good looks. It may have absolutely nothing do do with courage. Equally for some nasty Slamists these killers in Woolwich may become heroes, not because of their bravery, but because of their fidelity to jihad and their success in killing so publicly and so gaining maximum publicity for their act and their words.

As for "kiddy cowardice"... eh? What does that mean? I would guess that it means cowardice of the sort that is characteristic of children, but the behaviour of cowardly children is nothing like the behaviour of the two Islamic butchers in Woolwich. Admittedly, my experience of children is limited, but don't cowardly children run away screaming, seek the sanctuary of mummy or daddy, hide behind the sofa, weep...? I don't think kiddies, cowardly or otherwise, usually carve people up with meat cleavers, make well-prepared statements to camera about their cause or launch kamikazi attacks on armed Plod.