Woolwich soldier killed (was "Did cops just shoot 2 dead in woolwich?")

[J Ed]

What might happen is that non EDL/political violence types, maybe UKIP, may call some kind of national demonstration, I think that would get considerable support from people.

I'm concerned about that too, especially after their testing the waters with getting involved with anti-immigrant demonstrations in Lincolnshire and Cambridgeshire. I don't think it's too likely though.

 

[brogdale]

Demonstrate against what?

Peace, love and understanding?

 

[treelover]

Demonstrate against what?

against 'Islamic extremism', what happened in Woolwich and nearly happened in Birmingham.

 

[Ranbay]

81,629 at at 12.20 today

they had summit like 25K befre this

23.something k day before yesterday.

 

[cesare]

against 'Islamic extremism', what happened in Woolwich and nearly happened in Birmingham.

People aren't that stupid, surely? What, take to the streets and demand any extreme Islamists tone it down a bit?

 

[treelover]

23.something k day before yesterday.

as someone posted on CIF, many of the new 'converts' are atmo frightened and angry, many thousands will delete these EDL links in the next couple of weeks,

but many won't..

but why has this thread moved onto the EDL, its about a young man getting his head hacked off..

 

[chilango]

...but why has this thread moved onto the EDL, its about a young man getting his head hacked off..

I think that was your fault going on about their Facebook likes!

 

[treelover]

oops!

 

[xenon]

Why wouldn't it become a trend?

These guys have got the worlds attention just as much as any other terrorist actions. If every week there were similar attacks on civilians in Sainsbury's, down the market, on a train, in the pub, the terror effect on the population would be far greater than folk flying planes into buildings once in a lifetime.

And it's easy. All that's needed are a couple of choppers and the motivation to do it.

I commented earlier along the lines, this sort of attack is basically impossible to defend against in advance. The autonomous and low tech nature of it. JimW made the point that it's qualatively different to spectacular attacks with explosivves and militry hardware.

So thinking about that. This sort of attack, I don't hink has the same wider impact as a tube bombing. The horror of 2 men hacking someone to death, is still psychologically graspable. Brutal and disturbing though the details are, to someone at a remove from being connected to the immediate event it's some how quantifiable. The victim it seems, was of course deliberately targetted too. This wasn't some mad rampage. A randam explosion, mass shooting, partly due to the number of casualties that can be inflicted, still has more of a spectacular and wide reaching impression. Not least due to there being no identifiable target as such.

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

http://publicshaming.tumblr.com/post/51092450285/man-killed-in-horrible-london-machete-attack-racist


reading on twitter, etc, so many of the most unpleasant tweets are from young people, people who have lived in multi-racial/cultural society/environments all their lives, had civic lessons, why is this, what has failed , if anything?

Some nasty little cunts on there

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

https://twitter.com/jessicaaharrisx/status/337281140002004993

Wonder if she's deleted her account?

Francescaberryx seems to have disappeared. Another nasty bit of work

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

http://publicshaming.tumblr.com/post/51092450285/man-killed-in-horrible-london-machete-attack-racist


reading on twitter, etc, so many of the most unpleasant tweets are from young people, people who have lived in multi-racial/cultural society/environments all their lives, had civic lessons, why is this, what has failed , if anything?

Some of that must be attention seeking and not serious.

 

[treelover]

I've been saying for quite a while, nominally decent young people have on issues like benefits, migration, etc become very right wing indeed.

 

[Casually Red]

I don't think people getting sliced up in the street could ever become "routine". It would change our way of life.



It doesn't matter whether people fought back or not. The nature of these seemingly random attacks mean that they'll kill a few people in pretty much every case before they're stopped, and they don't care about dying.

Also, on the IRA thing in the 70s and 80s, the scope of their operations were generally limited by the desire of the operatives not to get caught or killed. These boys have flushed that rule down the bog and along with their willingness to die comes a whole host of potential new targets and activities.

.

the scope of their ops was also limited by not wanting to cause civilian casualties as well, unlike these punters

I hope I'm wrong but I can see this type of action becoming a game changer

it definitely seems to be a change of tack . It looks to me like an autonomous cell so to speak have figured out that networking with others in an attempt at the usual biggie is going to get them nicked from the outset. So theyve stuck together, planned and done their own thing that required the minimum of people and logistics and managed to hit the headlines. Other like minded punters are going to pick up on that success and compare it to the complete lack of success of numerous other failed plots . There could well be variations on the same theme in future .

Worth remembering the modus operandi of that german nazi cell that imploded last year too .

But what really disturbed me was that video of the guy ranting about how in the future people like him will be armed with firearms and the like popping up on your streets , bringing to mind Mumbai style stuff . First thing came into my head was the stupid fucking telly shouldnt have broadcast that . They were demanding people film them because they knew it would be headline news . That was the message they wanted to get accross to those wholl follow them, look what weve accomplished with this so now lets change direction lads . As far as i can see all that hampered these guys was logistics . Next punters may well decide to get tooled up with firearms, which cant be that hard to accomplish .

 

[Pickman's model]

I've been saying for quite a while, nominally decent young people have on issues like benefits, migration, etc become very right wing indeed.

nominally?

 

[treelover]

whiteknightberkshire
23 May 2013 12:47pm
Recommend
0
There is no easy answer here. I spent 5 years in a specialist covert unit in Ulster in the 80s fighting Irish terror.
We did use Loyalist forces to carry out some of the more extreme acts which are needed when fighting a war on terror. There are not the acts that one receives gongs from Her Majesty for but they were incredibly necessary operations to bring about a close to the conflict, War is hell and yesterday the other side showed a willingness to escalate this and inflict terror on the population and we must respond in kind. Killing off duty soldiers is nothing new, the provisional did this often but never as brutally and with a secondary element of spreading terror in the manner in which this AQ operative gave a press conference post the offence. You will note I do class him as an AQ operative and so should the legal system because then he can be served up for proper justice at the hands of the Americans
There is a solution here - we adopt the same ruthless policy we did in Ulster and execute all known AQ operatives and hare preachers in a short period of time, this then spreads terror back to the other side, knowing that at anytime night or day their doors could go in and they come face to face with the lads from Hereford and take 2 in the head.
The liberals wont like this but as Einstein said, the same level of consciousness which caused a problem cannot solve it
God Bless that young man yesterday and his family

from CIf, interesting worrying post, fantasist or true?

 

[FridgeMagnet]

fantasist or true?

Seriously?

 

[Fozzie Bear]

from CIf, interesting worrying post, fantasist or true?

People come out with all sorts of bollocks, doesn't mean anything.

I sat in the same train carriage as someone last night who was giving it the big one on their phone about how "they shouldn't just be arrested, they should be tortured".

I think Kenan Malik is spot on with this:

The general response has been a refusal to be terrorized, or to give in to bigotry. In that measured public response lies the real hope.

http://kenanmalik.wordpress.com/2013/05/23/reflections-on-woolwich/

 

[treelover]

STWC have issued a response linking the attack to Iraq, etc,

not good, imo..

 

[Casually Red]

The thing is this seems like a really crude terrorist attack. Just running a guy over and cutting his head off in the street ffs. It doesn't take weeks of training camp and support from a terrorist network to do what these men have done, so you can't really do much to stop this thing happening. .

but its not just any guy, theyve targetted military personnel outside a military base in your nations capital. Thats guaranteed them major kudos and hence their actions , and most importantly public exhortations, will influence others

Well, going back in time and not invading Iraq and Afghanistan would be nice but isn't an option. Wasn't this one of the big risks we knowingly took when we invaded these places a decade ago - that it would be interpreted as an anti-Islam crusade and lead to terrorist reprisals? I remember that being one of the major reasons I opposed the Iraq war

its not just what britain has done, its about British foreign policy in the entire muslim world and what its likely to do in the future as much as in the past . Britain is still in afghanistan and has bases all over the middle east . As long as you project power into what they see as the muslim backyard, indeed front yard , then people like this are going to feel justified in projecting what little power they have into yours .

 

[xenon]

FWIW Tommy Robinson will be interviewed on LBC this afternoon. Juliet Hartley-Brewer's show. I'm off out anyway so will miss it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

So, Thames House theatre using a couple of gullible prannets and an "expendable" squaddie, or genuine attack?

Me, I'm torn. I don't want to think "conspiracy", but there are a few things that aren't tracking yet - the whole event seems...convenient, for want of a better word.

 

[butchersapron]

People come out with all sorts of bollocks, doesn't mean anything.

I sat in the same train carriage as someone last night who was giving it the big one on their phone about how "they shouldn't just be arrested, they should be tortured".

I think Kenan Malik is spot on with this:



http://kenanmalik.wordpress.com/2013/05/23/reflections-on-woolwich/

This is excellent:

It tells us less about his attachment to Islam than about his complete disengagement from British society. Islamism has become one expression of such disengagement and of such detachment from social norms.

 

[chilango]

STWC have issued a response linking the attack to Iraq, etc,

not good, imo..

STWC are even more of an irrelevance than the EDL. there was a bit on he news where some talking head politician went into autopilot and slipped in a reference to ell elements of the Left supporting violent Islamism or something. But it's just habit IMO.

The Left don't have enough presence in public consciousness at the mo' to be brought into the in any meaningful way. Course Galloway might have other ideas, but would still be utterly peripheral to this.

I'm more curious to see what UKIP's response will be, if any.

 

[cesare]

So, Thames House theatre using a couple of gullible prannets and an "expendable" squaddie, or genuine attack?

Me, I'm torn. I don't want to think "conspiracy", but there are a few things that aren't tracking yet - the whole event seems...convenient, for want of a better word.

The first thing that occurred to me was that it was a Belmarsh escape, tbh.

 

[kittyP]

People aren't that stupid, surely? What, take to the streets and demand any extreme Islamists tone it down a bit?

Sorry, I know it is not really a laughing matter but that did make me lol

 

[JimW]

This is excellent:

Not sure about his opener on it being "mad, barbarous" and nihilistic though - the bloke's demeanour talking to camera as much suggested someone carrying through a thought-out plan, brutal but not mad, and hard to speak to the nihilism without knowing if he held some fantasy of a universal Caliphate that wouldn't be.

 

[butchersapron]

Not sure about his opener on it being "mad, barbarous" and nihilistic though - the bloke's demeanour talking to camera as much suggested someone carrying through a thought-out plan, brutal but not mad, and hard to speak to the nihilism without knowing if he held some fantasy of a universal Caliphate that wouldn't be.

I think he means more on the level of - i'm dead today so i'm going to go beyond all levels of collectively decided human social decency. That sort of no-rules nihilism. Not political nihilism.

 

[ViolentPanda]

from CIf, interesting worrying post, fantasist or true?

Plastic SASman.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

the bloke's demeanour talking to camera as much suggested someone carrying through a thought-out plan

I think that marks him out as a psycho.