Windrush Square, Brixton - news and discussion

[teuchter]

And I don't think anyone is being cynical, as it goes - they're just expressing their feelings about the new square. Turns out some people don't like it. Fair enough.

Of course, if some people don't like it fair enough. That is inevitable. What irritates me is assuming of the worst as a starting point, as if there's no possibility that anyone involved in the procurement/design/construction of the project had anything but bad intentions. It's just so overwhelmingly negative, and disheartening for the people who actually put a lot of thought and effort into these things, often in the face of a mass of difficulties and hinderances along the way. It could have been a bit of new paving, a few trees plonked about the place, and some bog standard park benches thrown in along with some cheesy off-the-shelf "public art" in the middle like any old town centre regeneration project in any old town in the UK. But it seems like an effort has been made not to do this, and maybe it's only if you've been involved in this kind of thing that you can appreciate how hard it is to achieve anything vaguely distinctive especially if you are working for a public body.

Constructive comment is one thing - say what you don't like and why, and maybe say what could have happened instead, and maybe give some examples of stuff you've seen elsewhere which you think has been effective.

But no, the starting point for some seems to be to suggest that the square has been intentionally designed to be unwelcoming, that the entire design team and clients were so lazy and ignorant as to not even realise that a windrush isn't actually a plant, and so on and so on. It's just a kind of conspiracy theory mindset - they are all just out to get us - and it doesn't seem to contribute anything useful to anything.

cf:

No, not at all. It is the result of the local nomenclature deciding what's likely to work best for us them.

teuchter, we have been given a windswept expanse of designer rock on purpose. Windswept Square is supposed to be uninviting, so that people will not hang out there.

This design goal has been achieved, but it is no surprise the designers' hearts were not in it, and that it shows.

This is beyond satire.

Is there really evidence that the square's designers thought that the Windrush after which the new square has been named must be a type of grass, and that their paymasters never noticed the ignorant howler?

I suppose given the nearby Rushcroft Road and Rush Common, someone may have made a lazy and ignorant assumption. What is almost beyond belief is that everyone involved in the design process was similarly ignorant.

etc etc

 

[teuchter]

Anyway, it's nice to say that out of those voting in the poll, more seem to feel it's an improvement than don't.

 

[Orang Utan]

peasants

you really are an unpleasant knuckledragging duurbrain

 

[editor]

Anyway, it's nice to say that out of those voting in the poll, more seem to feel it's an improvement than don't.

It's a bit of a meaningless poll though. considering just about anything would have been better than what was there before - and only three people think it's "Much better" now.

A more meaningful poll would have been to ask whether the redevelopment represented good value or not.

 

[Jonti]

So it was designed by teuchter's mum!

the square has been intentionally designed to be unwelcoming, that the entire design team and clients [didn't care] that a windrush isn't actually a plant

There's no argument that the whole thing has been designed to be "easily policed". It's no great surprise that sits uneasily the "cosy and welcoming" vibe, so you can untwist your knickers, thanks.

And "What's that sculpture about?" is a perfectly sensible question. Even if the answer is "it's a silly and laboured pun on the name of the Windrush, that some may find in dubious taste".

 

[teuchter]

So it was designed by teuchter's mum!
There's no argument that the whole thing has been designed to be "easily policed". It's no great surprise that sits uneasily the "cosy and welcoming" vibe, so you can untwist your knickers, thanks.

So "easily policed" is necessarily the same as "unwelcoming" is it?

It would be more interesting if you could explain why the policy of ensuring that public spaces are easily policed is a misled one.

And "What's that sculpture about?" is a perfectly sensible question. Even if the answer is "it's a silly and laboured pun on the name of the Windrush, that some may find in dubious taste".

It is a perfectly sensible question, but your post didn't come across as an interested question. It came across as an accusation.

Anyway, I presume you're similarly unhappy about the tile motifs in Brixton station.

 

[Jonti]

I do think that design's a bit silly and trivial, yes, but I'm a big fan of the Stockwell Swan.

 

[DJWrongspeed]

Of course, if some people don't like it fair enough. That is inevitable. What irritates me is assuming of the worst as a starting point, as if there's no possibility that anyone involved in the procurement/design/construction of the project had anything but bad intentions. It's just so overwhelmingly negative, and disheartening for the people who actually put a lot of thought and effort into these things, often in the face of a mass of difficulties and hinderances along the way. It could have been a bit of new paving, a few trees plonked about the place, and some bog standard park benches thrown in along with some cheesy off-the-shelf "public art" in the middle like any old town centre regeneration project in any old town in the UK. But it seems like an effort has been made not to do this, and maybe it's only if you've been involved in this kind of thing that you can appreciate how hard it is to achieve anything vaguely distinctive especially if you are working for a public body.

Whatever the brief was I actually think they've done quite a good a job. I think the negativity here is probably aimed exactly 'what' they were asked to design rather than the design itself.

 

[tarannau]

My gut feel is that it's a bit early to say that it's met any brief, whatever the hell that might have been. Time will see if it succeeds in use.

It does succeed as a big open space, not that I'd say that's a particularly tricky design objective to achieve. What I'm really not sure is how it'll turn out for events - the grassed area looks smaller and less suited than what was there before, more awkwardly bisected by paths to boot and the variable heights of the surfaces around don't really provide a key focal area elsewhere. Equally the market idea seems an afterthought - the most plausible space seems to be a 'red' paved strip in the middle with lowered curbs for access, but that would seem to cut out the openess of the square and essentially divide it into half, restricting that precious visibility rationale. And that's without going into the power point provision, storage for traders and the possible impact and competition with the main market. It doesn't, outwardly at least, look like it's particularly well designed when it comes to those needs. Shoehorning a new market in there with little planning seems a little daft when there are already underpopulated and renown market areas nearby - it whiffs a little of trying to find a purpose for the new costly sqaure

I don't think the new square looks terrible. It is however a little plain and uninspired for my tastes, hard to justify as a priority spend if it's little more than a pathway on the way to the tube station. A few people were sitting in isolated chairs yesterday, basking in a little winter sun, but it hardly felt like the vibrant centre of the community either - the drinkers corner by the bogs were the only real group talking.

 

[London_Calling]

Is it a square? It's just a big old 'open space' surely. To characterise it otherwise invites ambitions that can't be realised - like the links above to what I would think of as proper European squares; it’s a false comparison made, I guess, because they have the word ‘square’ in common.

 

[twistedAM]

Whatever the brief was I actually think they've done quite a good a job. I think the negativity here is probably aimed exactly 'what' they were asked to design rather than the design itself.

My gut feel is that it's a bit early to say that it's met any brief, whatever the hell that might have been. Time will see if it succeeds in use.

I saw it for the first time today and thought it looked a bit shite to be honest but then again it was a dull windswept March afternoon and the proof will be in its usage when they complete the tenders and announce events.

Until then I reserve judgement.

 

[Rushy]

For me, the major problem for Windrush Open Space is it's bordered by two major A road and a side road, with all the noise and other pollution and safety considerations that brings.

I'd like to think the inclusion of Effra Road has only been postponed because that could be quite spectacular in terms of creating more of a European square and reducing especially noise pollution.

Overall I think the changes are really positive and I am really enjoying walking through the space to and from my home several times every day. There are definitely some niggles, some of which will probably get sorted out over time but all in all I think it is great and has made a chopped up area feel much more cohesive.

I think that non-closure of Effra Road was a missed opportunity.There was a great deal of will in the council and TFL to close it but there were huge local objections by at least two residents groups to prevent that from happening on the grounds that it was safer to have traffic passing through the space. One of their main arguments (which was leafleted through local doors) was that the police had not been involved in the design process and that the council was being reckless with safety. Consequently the police addressed local meetings in Saint Matthews Estate Tenant's Hall to explain that their landscaping teams had been closely involved in the design process and that they strongly supported the closure of Effra Road. Despite this, the objections continued although I think it was from a very vociferous but steadily decreasing minority with strongly held views who claimed to be speaking on everyone's behalf. Whatever the subject matter objectors are always louder than consenters (and I say that having been both!).

I never thought that I would see a rare opportunity to reclaim roads for pedestrians lost because of local objection. Given that the roads were kept open because of the argument that having traffic driving through it increases safety it seems a little ironic that, on the day the square opened, all five lanes of Brixton Hill between Mass and the Fridge had to be closed for most of the day because someone was stabbed in full view of the A23.

I noticed that the stretch of road between the new square and St Matthews Peace Gardens is being paved so hopefully there will be an opportunity to see the two linked in the future if the Square proves to be a success.

 

[Crispy]

They intend to close Effra road by the church for events, at least. They'd need to take some of the fence down to really link St Matthews up properly though.

 

[innit]

I never thought that I would see a rare opportunity to reclaim roads for pedestrians lost because of local objection.

You're right, that is sad.

 

[teuchter]

You're right, that is sad.

It is.

This illustrates how hard it is to get something that everyone is going to be happy with.

I wonder if the objections were all genuinely to do with "safety" or whether there was an element of people who didn't want to have to take a more roundabout route to get to their house by car if that bit of road was shut.

I think I'm right in saying that that bit of Effra Road running alongside the square is going to be raised to be level with the square, which is a way of trying to slow people down there. Maybe this has also been dropped though.

 

[Crispy]

It's going to be cobbled, I know that much (just checking the planning drawings now)

 

[editor]

I like cobbles (the road surface, not the poster). So long as they're proper cobbles though.

 

[Rushy]

They are using the same stones as they have already laid on Saltoun Rd. - a sort of modern square edged cobble. Looks good on Saltoun.

 

[Crispy]

I like cobbles (the road surface, not the poster). So long as they're proper cobbles though.

'proper' cobbles have smooth heads and get all slippy in the rain so you can't use them any more. They have to be the rough-surfaced sort.

 

[teuchter]

The correct term for what is used these days is in fact "setts", not "cobbles".

Cobbles

Setts

 

[Rushy]

Has anyone noticed the new rusty "weathering steel" paving next to the old toilets? Never seen anything like that before.

 

[editor]

Has anyone noticed the new rusty "weathering steel" paving next to the old toilets? Never seen anything like that before.

It's a bit odd. Eme thought that they were in the shape of rifles at first!

 

[Winot]

Given that the roads were kept open because of the argument that having traffic driving through it increases safety it seems a little ironic that, on the day the square opened, all five lanes of Brixton Hill between Mass and the Fridge had to be closed for most of the day because someone was stabbed in full view of the A23.

And that you are far more likely to have an accident with a car than be mugged etc.!

 

[mrtea]

I like it, dont know how much it cost? they could of done alot more with the water feature and lights had they put out a commission to public artists . . . I am a bit confused tho' as to why the road gets lovely stone paving from france (read it on the wrapper!) and we get what looks like grit blasted walkways around the grass verges??

 

[Brainaddict]

I think that non-closure of Effra Road was a missed opportunity.There was a great deal of will in the council and TFL to close it but there were huge local objections by at least two residents groups to prevent that from happening on the grounds that it was safer to have traffic passing through the space.

That's so crap. Some people really will object to any change, just because it is a change

 

[London_Calling]

No, they objected on the ground of improved personal safety - that was their view.

 

[innit]

No, they objected on the ground of improved personal safety - that was their view.

well yeah - fear of change basically.

 

[London_Calling]

 

[lang rabbie]

Has anyone noticed the new rusty "weathering steel" paving next to the old toilets? Never seen anything like that before.

I think it is to make obvious the area that can't take heavy loads. We were worried at the 2008 Christmas lights switch-on when one of the contractors tried to park their van on the pavement. There was a serious prospect that it would plunge into the abandoned loos below.

 

[quimcunx]

I would not like to plunge into an abandoned loo. However it would be preferable to plunging into one still engaged in looly business.