Windrush Square, Brixton - news and discussion

[Treacle Toes]

It just looked like a paved area with different colours on the floor, like a play mat.

.

Nicely put Fridge.

 

[innit]

Here you go - Windswept Square:

This just looks like a trip hazard.

I don't mind the fountain though - it looks a bit random from a distance, but it was nice to see a rainbow hanging in the water droplets as the sun shone through it this afternoon.

 

[editor]

This just looks like a trip hazard.

The only reason we've got the space in the first place is because Sir Henry Tate's widow bought and donated the land to the public, but that contribution that seems to have been written out of the brief.

Similarly, that chunk of knackered stone dumped on the steps is just about the only reminder of Brixton's once-famous Theatre, with ne'er a hint of the area's once-proud theatrical tradition.

 

[London_Calling]

Bit bleak with yer arboreal deciduous....ness.

 

[nagapie]

So did no one catch sight of Boris and get to heckle him?

 

[miss minnie]

So did no one catch sight of Boris and get to heckle him?

Is it worth heckling Boris? He's a bit good at parry and riposte what with all that practice on telly.

 

[Tricky Skills]

So did no one catch sight of Boris and get to heckle him?

We weren't allowed anywhere near. The politicians has their invite only VIP opening event on Friday. Steve Reed and his chums mingled with Boris and did the civic thing. The people were not allowed in until Saturday.

It rained on Friday.

Saturday saw sunshine.

 

[story]

I went through the square this morning in brilliant sunshine. It was rather nice, I thought. And it was being used. Every chair was occupied, even the loner ones, and the big concrete turd (surely there must be a better way to refer to the serpentine bench?) was covered with people of all ages, one of whom was playing a geetar.

I hope it's not just the novelty and that the square will indeed be used by veh citzenry.

 

[editor]

I went through the square this morning in brilliant sunshine. It was rather nice, I thought. And it was being used. Every chair was occupied, even the loner ones, and the big concrete turd (surely there must be a better way to refer to the serpentine bench?) was covered with people of all ages, one of whom was playing a geetar.

Thing is, you could have just shoved some cheap benches into what was there previously and there'd be just as many people there.

 

[Badgers]

It looked nice but very empty tonight going past. Suppose it is a Monday though and will reserve judgement. On a hot day Brockwell Park seems much more attractive to me but I am still in favour of this I think.

 

[Planty]

I thought the fountain looked quite beautiful tonight. Fine misty spray and gentle coloured lighting.

 

[Mairead]

I went through the square this morning in brilliant sunshine. It was rather nice, I thought. And it was being used. Every chair was occupied, even the loner ones, and the big concrete turd (surely there must be a better way to refer to the serpentine bench?) was covered with people of all ages, one of whom was playing a geetar.

I hope it's not just the novelty and that the square will indeed be used by veh citzenry.

I've got to say that I operate from a default position of cynicism and suspicion whenever the council are involved with anything but I was there about 3.30 today and it was the same, I really liked it and hope people will continue to use it once the novelty(?) has worn off.

 

[DJWrongspeed]

It looks quite cool at night with the snazzy lights, it's even got a kind of fountain. I do wonder what it will look like in 10yrs time though. Is it the result of some grand democratic consultation and maybe that's why it's ended up being a bit pointless ! It's trying so hard to create a sculpted blank surface which doesn't serve much purpose.

It would have been more interesting to have some buildings roadside and then an inward looking square perhaps away from the traffic. The area just feels too exposed.

 

[Crispy]

In the original plan, Effra road would have been closed, so joining up the square with St Matthew's churchyard. I agree it needs more enclosure, but enclosure is exactly what 'secure by design' doesn't want - it allows groups of people to 'own' and control space.

 

[teuchter]

I have added a poll for people to say what they think of it.

I'd suggest you only vote once you've actually walked across it yourself and spent a bit of time there, rather than peering at it from the bus.

 

[teuchter]

Compare and contrast with:

Feature: http://www.urban75.org/brixton/features/windrush-square-brixton-opens.html

Two points here -

Do you seriously think that what worked for Victorian Brixton (relatively well-to-do semi-suburban shopping centre) is appropriate in 2010?

Would you agree that gardens are not the same thing as a public square? Therefore the argument is more about whether we want some tended gardens for people to wander about in with their parasols, or a public space that can be used for events?

 

[editor]

Two points here -

Do you seriously think that what worked for Victorian Brixton (relatively well-to-do semi-suburban shopping centre) is appropriate in 2010?

Would you agree that gardens are not the same thing as a public square? Therefore the argument is more about whether we want some tended gardens for people to wander about in with their parasols, or a public space that can be used for events?

I believe that a middle ground could have been found between the featureless sea of concrete and stone that we now have and some grass, plants and gardens.

They could have, for example, kept a grass border instead of digging up the corner of Coldharbour Lane and replacing it with an extended pavement. The lack of a toilet is truly ridiculous: they want people to tarry awhile, but with no toilets available at night, they're just going to piss in the square - probably over the granite worm.

 

[teuchter]

I agree. The reason its like this is because it incorporates the principles of "Secured by Design".

"Public consultation was carried out in 2005 and showed that the
community was keen to see the area developed into a safer and
more secure place to be at all times of the day. The local police
and Lambeth Council were active in the design development of
the square to ensure that these concerns were addressed.
The open design of the square will mean that anyone walking
through it can see who is in the area and what they are doing.
Combined with carefully placed CCTV cameras and improved
lighting, this will enhance the feeling of security".

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/corporate/Transforming-Brixton-Town-Centre-Phase-Three.pdf

Secured by Design http://www.securedbydesign.com/ means that Police now have a large say in how public projects like this end up. Thats why the square has ended up looking like a car park.

Do you object to the principle of "secured by design"?

What is it about the principle of making places that people feel safe in that you don't like?

What do you think about the circulation routes on postwar housing estates that have blind corners and which aren't overlooked by people's houses, or are poorly lit? Do you reject the idea that some of the problems on these estates are caused by the design of them?

 

[tarannau]

Do you think it's a good event space though Teuchter? It's difficult to envisage how they see the square working for most events - there are certainly practical drawback to its use for market purposes and the grass end towards Saltoun Rd seems smaller and more broken up than the simpler green which preceded it.

It's not horrendous, it just doesn't really hang together or add much at the mo.

 

[tarannau]

BTW the square, either the old version or the flash-floored new style, is in no way equivalent or really comparable to a postwar housing estate.

 

[London_Calling]

Not best judged in Feb/March, imo. Waiting to see how people come to occupy the space over time.

 

[pboi]

how is it acceptable that people will just piss in the square?

 

[teuchter]

I believe that a middle ground could have been found between the featureless sea of concrete and stone that we now have and some grass, plants and gardens.

They could have, for example, kept a grass border instead of digging up the corner of Coldharbour Lane and replacing it with an extended pavement. The lack of a toilet is truly ridiculous: they want people to tarry awhile, but with no toilets available at night, they're just going to piss in the square - probably over the granite worm.

There are several areas of grass at the south end of the space, and there are a load of new trees there too (more than there were before).

I imagine that part of the reason the grass areas were placed at that end rather than by the corner is that it will see less footfall. A grassy border by coldharbour lane would get churned up into a muddy mess, unless you fenced it off, which would kind of defeat the purpose.

How often did you see people lounging around on the grass previously? Rarely I'd say. It's not really the place you would go if you want to have a picnic or stroll amongst some flowers - Brockwell park is just up the road.

Also you describe it as a "featureless sea of concrete and stone". I actually can't see much concrete myself. But anyway, you describe it like that to make it sound like something negative. What's intrinsically wrong with a a bit of open paved surface? It's something that London lacks compared to most European cities. It has plenty of precedent elsewhere.

As far as the toilets are concerned...yes of course it would be good if we had more public toilets (everywhere) but that's really a political decision - you can't blame the design of the square for that.

 

[Crispy]

All your examples there are enclosed, Teuchter (apart from Red Square, which is windswept and bleak as you like!). I don't think the design for Windrush Sq. could really do much about that, without severely redefining the road and building layout.

The conversion of Raleigh house to the Black History museum will really help though

 

[teuchter]

Do you think it's a good event space though Teuchter? It's difficult to envisage how they see the square working for most events - there are certainly practical drawback to its use for market purposes and the grass end towards Saltoun Rd seems smaller and more broken up than the simpler green which preceded it.

It's not horrendous, it just doesn't really hang together or add much at the mo.

I think we'll have to give it a few months before we can really say how well it works in practice.

I do think it's better than what was there before though. I struggle to think of what has been lost compared to the previous arrangement. Certainly I hardly ever saw people using the grassy bit previously.

BTW the square, either the old version or the flash-floored new style, is in no way equivalent or really comparable to a postwar housing estate.

I was just trying to make the point that the "secured by design" (or whatever you want to call it) thinking is a result of learning from some fairly serious design errors in many postwar housing estates.

There are serious consequences to creating spaces that are hard to police. And when I say police, I don't just mean the cops; it's about passers by and people in surrounding buildings too.

I think there can be a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to the suggestion that somewhere should be easy to police, as if the aim is to somehow reduce people's freedoms. When in fact it's usually more about making places usable to greater number of people.

I know there's the thing about the street drinkers, and I'm sure people are thinking that this new space is designed to put them off... the thing is that I think that they should be allowed to use the new space just like anyone else is, but that doesn't mean that it's good if they basically take over the whole space which is effectively what tended to happen before, and the reason that happened before was partly that the area was somewhat separated off from the surroundings with the result that many people felt uncomfortable (with or without good reason) walking through it.

If it turns out the the council/police can more easily try and get the street drinkers off the new space, then the objection shouldn't be against the design of the space (or even the "secure by design" principles) - the objection should be against the fact that the council/police choose to adopt a policy that says not everyone should be allowed to use an area of public space.

 

[tarannau]

A suprising number of people used to use the 'grassy bit' ime, well at least in hot weather.

Give it time to settle, but it looks a bit badly designed when it comes to events. The whole market idea for example, certainly seems an afterthought rather than something designed for.

 

[teuchter]

All your examples there are enclosed, Teuchter (apart from Red Square, which is windswept and bleak as you like!). I don't think the design for Windrush Sq. could really do much about that, without severely redefining the road and building layout.

The conversion of Raleigh house to the Black History museum will really help though

Well, I would happily see all the surrounding roads shut to all traffic except buses. But that's not going to happen and like you say, there's only so much you can do about that in the design of the square.

I'm sure I can think of some examples of public hardstanding spaces which have traffic running along one or more sides of them, that are successful. In any case, making it grass rather than paving doesn't deal with the issue of nearby traffic. I would say the nearby traffic just makes a grassy area all the less inappropriate.

 

[teuchter]

A suprising number of people used to use the 'grassy bit' ime, well at least in hot weather.

Give it time to settle, but it looks a bit badly designed when it comes to events. The whole market idea for example, certainly seems an afterthought rather than something designed for.

It's just speculation because I wasn't involved in it, but I would imagine that the arrangement of the area was somewhat restricted by certain elements that they weren't allowed to move, like the old public toilets for example.

 

[editor]

As far as the toilets are concerned...yes of course it would be good if we had more public toilets (everywhere) but that's really a political decision - you can't blame the design of the square for that.

Yes, you can because with all their vast budget, the toilets that were already there were simply given a lick of black paint and left locked. If you want people to come to the square in their droves, there should be proper facilities there.

As Crispy says, I don't think your enclosed space comparisons are valid ones either. Red Square? LOL.

 

[London_Calling]

For me, the major problem for Windrush Open Space is it's bordered by two major A road and a side road, with all the noise and other pollution and safety considerations that brings.

I'd like to think the inclusion of Effra Road has only been postponed because that could be quite spectacular in terms of creating more of a European square and reducing especially noise pollution.