We are protected as part of NATO anyway so it doesn't matter
Will you vote for independence?
- Thread starter ska invita
- Start date
And what if America has a fit of the vapours and declines to help? You're also assuming that NATO endures. Those pro-independence need to think to the long term, 50+ years, not just the short term.
That's life get over it every country in the world has to live with a wee bit of uncertainty about their security we can't hide under the UK's apron like a scared little child for the rest of time in case some as yet unknown bogeyman appears in 200 years time and we might have a problem that's ridiculous we should be standing on our own two feet making friends and alliances all the uk does is make us enemies
weepiper
I fix the machines that fight climate change
Launch of Scots Asians For Yes today
http://www.theedinburghreporter.co....nburghs-asian-community-to-hear-case-for-yes/
http://www.theedinburghreporter.co....nburghs-asian-community-to-hear-case-for-yes/
No, it's a matter of life and death. It is not a trivial issue. And people need to make an informed choice.
geminisnake
a complex mass of conflicting ideas
Have a look at Scottish history. Who has ever invaded us?? Oh! Gosh!! That would be, to some extent, the Vikings and oh! the English monarchy and their forces! That's old school, it's not going to happen anymore.
Maybe you are forgetting just how many Scots are in the Armed services, many of whom are SAS and SBS. I don't think we're going to be under attack any time soon tbh.
WTF is Farage on about and WTF has it got to do with him anyway??
And WW1 was The War To End All Wars.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Well I've not read the article but I think it's pretty obvious from the headline, he's arguing that Scots voters should have a vote to decide whether they join/stay in (depending on the what happens if Yes wins) the EU or not.
Not a particularly bizarre position really.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Quartz is already taking enough rubbish don't add to it.
gosub
~#
It won't be down to Scotland whether they are in, be the other member states and looks unlikely. To rejoin would require budgetary constraints that make all the numbers and promises undoable and cause the border headaches with rUK due to mandatory Schengen, so makes sense to plebiscite.
The discussion on the next treaty formalises next year and it looks like the UK (or rUK) will be stiffed anyway with as much rights and power as Ukraine (associate membership) could to well to get ahead of Westminster on the curve.
Or just keep pretending all things to all men on a yes vote
The discussion on the next treaty formalises next year and it looks like the UK (or rUK) will be stiffed anyway with as much rights and power as Ukraine (associate membership) could to well to get ahead of Westminster on the curve.
Or just keep pretending all things to all men on a yes vote
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And that is an example of the arrogance of the Yes camp.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Apart from I'm not in the Yes camp, I'm not Scottish, I don't live in Scotland, in fact I've never lived in Scotland.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Will you be cheering along with the Forces of Darkness, though? (You don't need to answer: whatever you say, we know you will be).
So? It's still an example of the arrogance of the Yes camp.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
, Looks like it.
weepiper
I fix the machines that fight climate change
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
OK, let's just look at that one statement. Are you suggesting that to want independence because of the rightward pull of the Westminster system is tantamount to voting Yes in a "fit of pique"?
That's a bizarre analysis. It's ahistoric, apolitical, and misunderstands the position.
The truth is that an explicitly centre right party (called Tory or anything else) will not flourish in the foreseeable future in Scotland, whether Scotland is inside or outside of the Union. True, the Labour Party can (especially since they jumped the centre right shark with the Welfare Cap vote) currently be described as centre right, but that is in no small measure due to the Westminster/FPTP effect (chasing the few swing votes in a handful of key marginals). After independence, if it happens, Sturgeon is right: there will be a realignment in Scottish politics, and Scottish Labour will be free to rediscover its social democratic identity. Why, because it will now be chasing Scottish votes, and will be paying heed to Scottish Civil Society's identity story of the social democratic consensus.
People are not choosing to rid themselves of Tory rule because its a team they don't support, or a label they don't prefer, but because they believe the Tory policies damage their lives. The Labour vote is now soft because they don't vote Labour with any great conviction any more, but as - until now - the option they have at their disposal to keep the Tories out of Number 10 Downing Street.
(We can have a longer debate about the decline since the 50s of the working class protestant Tory vote in Scotland, which will take in amongst other things the decline in Orange-ism in working class Scotland - the reasons for which in itself are worth discussing, but might require a separate thread - but for the last 50 years, since 1964, Labour has out performed the Tories in Scotland).
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
In 'New Model Army' by Adam Roberts, William the would be King dies in a copter crash. Scotland declines to accept the ginger ones paternity without a DNA test. Once this is declined Scotland goes to war hiring a 'New Model Army' of crowd sourced kickstarter mercs who share a wiki-combat distributed orders system and use google earth to get round. Youy laugh, but they destroy reading and then paralyse london by hitting the tube, dlr and road links.
all of which is about as likely as Quartzes scenario of the usa crumbling to dust and brave scotland at the mercy of...dunno...libya?
all of which is about as likely as Quartzes scenario of the usa crumbling to dust and brave scotland at the mercy of...dunno...libya?
Yes. Scotland and England have been united in one form or another for ~400 years. A disagreement of a mere decade certainly qualifies as a fit of pique.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
http://www.theguardian.com/politics...anti-scottish-independence-campaign-miserable
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politi...dependence-yes-at-37-in-yougov-poll-1-3353921
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politi...dependence-new-poll-shows-yes-shift-1-3350563
Fascinating stuff, it seems still all to play for, for both sides. In a way I would prefer a wider margin for one or the other side, I wonder what the effect will be after the vote if one side wins by only a tiny margin?
Oh dear.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I suspect quartz is a double agent. But he's overdoing it over the last few days.
DairyQueen
Well-Known Member
Quartz has a standard unionist views. I know a lot of cunts around that express these views. I have no idea who it is Quartz feels we will be nuking (or threatening to nuke). The other comment just sounds like he has been reading history books written by 19th century English aristocrats.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
I find that a very odd perspective. First of all, fighting invidious, corrosive and repugnant Tory policies is no mere fad. It’s about real people’s real lives. Do you really suggest that people endure Tory rule for the sake of an arbitrary national designation?
Secondly, the first 100 years of the period you have chosen to call ‘union of one sort or another’ is the Union of Crowns. What relevance has the dynastic shenanigans of hereditary rulers of hundreds of years ago got for today’s pensioner struggling to heat her home; for the impending collapse of the NHS into private coffers; the destruction of the Welfare State; the effects of the stolen Mail service that will soon contract into only the most profitable of areas; and so on? We should keep the current constitutional set-up, with its WMD and its in-built rightward drift just to honour the memory of James Stuart and his offspring? No, we shouldn't. And if independence means pissing on their graves figuratively or literally, then so much the better.
And thirdly, 50 years is no blink of the eye to a real person: it is the life expectancy of men in the poorest wards of the Glasgow conurbation. But that should be cast aside because James Stuart, offspring of Robber Barons, sat on a fancy chair in 1603?
The Union of Parliaments came about because it suited the powerful in 1707. It will be dissolved, if at all, because the ordinary working class Scot sees it as an impediment and an irrelevance.
DairyQueen
Well-Known Member
Don't respond to him. Even after the Union of Crowns, including today, there has been all sorts of movements and antagonisms that are distinctly Scottish. There are a host of Scottish interests that Westminster do not care about.
This is not a nationalist thing. If you want to understand these issues you have to understand the role Scottish identity, geography, and economics plays and has played in creating Scotland as a country today. The vast majority of British intellectuals and other general dicks seem to downplay any difference, no matter how obvious.
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danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
I'll respond to whomsoever I see fit, thanks. And I like to think I'm pretty well versed in Scottish history, cheers.
Well that's certainly one way to win a vote.
ETA Please don't conflate my views with how I suggest Better Together should campaign.
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DairyQueen
Well-Known Member
It has nothing to do with the referendum. We are spending billions on a new nuclear deterrent if you have not noticed.
geminisnake
a complex mass of conflicting ideas
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