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Will you vote for independence?

Scottish independence?

  • Yes please

    Votes: 99 56.6%

  • No thanks

    Votes: 57 32.6%

  • Dont know yet

    Votes: 17 9.7%
  • Total voters
    175
Edinburgh decreed that students in England pay fees?

Cool...another power Salmond has got us.
 
Quartz said:
And Edinburgh has decreed that UK students domiciled in the UK other than Scotland pay fees, but students from Scotland and other EU countries don't. That's discrimination.
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OK, I think you're getting confused about what devolution is and means.

Education has been devolved to Holyrood. While Westminster has decided that it will charge students fees, Holyrood has decided not to. Now, Holyrood is not a state parliament, but a devolved body. Its powers do not end at an international border, but at an internal UK border. This means that British passport holders have different bodies governing education policy, depending on where they live. I agree that it is unfair that people governed by Westminster education policy have to pay tuition fees. I think education should be free at point of use. However, Westminster disagrees.

Holyrood - with powers over education for those living in Scotland - has a policy that Scottish universities should not charge tuition fees to those for whom it has responsibility: people domiciled in Scotland. That is devolution - different policies for different parts of the UK. I - for example - do not pay prescription charges in Scotland. Although I think there is an argument that a small charge would deter people from collecting medicines they don't really need, I find it very helpful, as I have more than one repeat prescription. Were I to try to "cash" in my prescription in England, I'd have to go through a temporary patient registration procedure, and pay for my prescription. This is not anti-Scots discrimination, but a result of devolution. It is because the Health budget for England is for those domiciled in England.

Holyrood has a budget allocated by central government (Westminster) from which it pays for education for those domiciled within its writ. That budget is not for people governed by Westminster education policy (including people born in Scotland but domiciled in England).

Now, EU states are not allowed to give preferential treatment to its own students. So EU students going to Scottish universities have to have their tuition fees paid, too. However, Scotland is not the member state, the UK is. And in the rest of the UK, tuition fees are charged. This is an anomaly caused by devolution. But it is unfair to try to blame Holyrood for Westminster education policy.

If we have devolution, it is going to mean different things happening in different parts of the UK. There are two ways of trying to square the circle: independence for Scotland (which would mean English and Welsh domiciled students get paid tuition fees, too, if Scotland becomes an EU member); or a federal UK (which answers the West Lothian Question, but would not address the tuition fees anomaly).
 
Quartz said:
No, I'm not. Hollyrood has the power to subsidise English students but chooses not to.
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Why? Because its budget is for students domiciled in Scotland. That's why it "chooses not to". The same reason that the NHS in Staffordshire "chooses not to" pay my prescription charge for me when I visit without my medicines.

The tuition fee disparity is an anomaly brought about by devolution. But it wouldn't even be happening if Westminster hadn't introduced tuition fees.

To be absolutely clear, I'm not a supporter of the SNP. Far from it. I'm not in the business of apologising for anti-English legislation. This isn't about anti-Englishness, it's about what happens within a state with differential devolution when different parts adopt different policies. In fact Salmond and co are embarrassed by the unforeseen outcomes of his tuition pledge. When they made it, I'm pretty sure they hadn't factored in the EU rule. It's a rule that has seen an increase of EU students applying to Scottish universities rather than English ones (where they'll pay a tuition fee). They can do without the extra cost of that. They can also do without the accusations of unfairness: they're trying to project an image of competence and "social justice" prior to the independence referendum. However, they can't back down from the pledge because it's a vote-winner in one of the socio-economic groups they pulled from Labour and hope to keep.

Is it fair that different parts of the UK have different policies on a range of issues covered by the various devolved bodies? That's devolution for you.
 
danny la rouge said:
OK, I think you're getting confused about what devolution is and means.

Education has been devolved to Holyrood. While Westminster has decided that it will charge students fees, Holyrood has decided not to. Now, Holyrood is not a state parliament, but a devolved body. Its powers do not end at an international border, but at an internal UK border. This means that British passport holders have different bodies governing education policy, depending on where they live. I agree that it is unfair that people governed by Westminster education policy have to pay tuition fees. I think education should be free at point of use. However, Westminster disagrees.

Holyrood - with powers over education for those living in Scotland - has a policy that Scottish universities should not charge tuition fees to those for whom it has responsibility: people domiciled in Scotland. That is devolution - different policies for different parts of the UK. I - for example - do not pay prescription charges in Scotland. Although I think there is an argument that a small charge would deter people from collecting medicines they don't really need, I find it very helpful, as I have more than one repeat prescription. Were I to try to "cash" in my prescription in England, I'd have to go through a temporary patient registration procedure, and pay for my prescription. This is not anti-Scots discrimination, but a result of devolution. It is because the Health budget for England is for those domiciled in England. yes this answers the question .

Holyrood has a budget allocated by central government (Westminster) from which it pays for education for those domiciled within its writ. That budget is not for people governed by Westminster education policy (including people born in Scotland but domiciled in England).

Now, EU states are not allowed to give preferential treatment to its own students. So EU students going to Scottish universities have to have their tuition fees paid, too. However, Scotland is not the member state, the UK is. And in the rest of the UK, tuition fees are charged. This is an anomaly caused by devolution. But it is unfair to try to blame Holyrood for Westminster education policy.

If we have devolution, it is going to mean different things happening in different parts of the UK. There are two ways of trying to square the circle: independence for Scotland (which would mean English and Welsh domiciled students get paid tuition fees, too, if Scotland becomes an EU member); or a federal UK (which answers the West Lothian Question, but would not address the tuition fees anomaly).
Click to expand...
 
danny la rouge said:
That's twice you've done that, John. Do you have something to say?
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ive read your and i quote ( its unfair to blame westminster) i personally blame westminster for all the unrest concerning independence for scotland , was it not the borderer blair and his scottish friends in parliament that pushed through devolution as a prelude to independence , yes .
 
What independence ? The Bank of England will continue to control the economy via interest rates; the head of state remains the same....
 
Sorry if its been asked before but what will happen with the Islands? I'm thinking mainly of Orkney and Shetland here but it could apply to any of the inhabited islands. Say if Scotland as a whole votes for independence but on Shetland the majority vote against do they just have to suck it up and come along for the ride? It seems to me to be a crucial issue given how important the subject of coastal territory and oil is going to be.

BTW I have no knowledge of how pro or anti independence the islanders are.
 
I suppose they could always hold their own vote after that. That would make things very interesting.
 
Teaboy said:
I suppose they could always hold their own vote after that. That would make things very interesting.
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How could they? If Glasgow City Council decided to hold another vote on independence and got a result saying they wanted to stay part of the UK we wouldn't have an independent Scotland with a little UK island in the middle of it would we, we all know what happened in Northern Ireland and what a great idea that turned out to be, so why should any of the island groups be likely to a) do it b) be allowed to do it? If Scotland votes for independence the Shetlands and Orkney will be part of independent Scotland. I really don't get why people get their knickers in a knot over this.
 
Teaboy said:
I'm thinking mainly of Orkney and Shetland here but it could apply to any of the inhabited islands.
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You make a very good point. I'll be watching particularly Millport and Inchmurrin.

Similarly, I'm trying to find out how Eel Pie Island and Canvey Island voted in the AV referendum. If they voted yes, shouldn't they have AV now, despite the fact that the rest of the UK voted against it?
 
It's not just Scottish dairy farmers that keeps us on GMT. The City likes being able to catch both Tokyo and New York markets
 
No i won't be voting for independence. The thought of Scotland being independent is a nice idea, but personally i think the reality would be a disaster.
 
danny la rouge said:
You make a very good point. I'll be watching particularly Millport and Inchmurrin.

Similarly, I'm trying to find out how Eel Pie Island and Canvey Island voted in the AV referendum. If they voted yes, shouldn't they have AV now, despite the fact that the rest of the UK voted against it?
Click to expand...

Yeah and what about the isle of dogs? Eh what about them?
 
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