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Will you vote for independence?

Scottish independence?

  • Yes please

    Votes: 99 56.6%

  • No thanks

    Votes: 57 32.6%

  • Dont know yet

    Votes: 17 9.7%
  • Total voters
    175
teuchter said:
If an independent Scotland would have to re-apply, then would it not follow that the remainder-stump bit of the ex-uk should have to re-apply too?
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Seems to be the current SNP line. Granted is new ground for EUrope, closest is Greenland. However quite a lot of precedent at things like UN or even looking the other way every organisation GB was part of when Eire split off.
If SNP really do believe their actions should have consequences such as this for England and Wales, then presumably they think they should also be balloted
 
I'm a little ashamed of my ignorance here, but ultimately what exactly are the powers that an independent Scottish parliament would have, that the current devolved parliament doesn't currently have?
 
teuchter said:
I'm a little ashamed of my ignorance here, but ultimately what exactly are the powers that an independent Scottish parliament would have, that the current devolved parliament doesn't currently have?
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That's slightly harder to answer than you might imagine, since the Scotland Act (1998) (amended in 2012) originally defined the powers reserved by Westminster rather than the powers that would be devolved to Holyrood. However that means that this is where the detail is. You can see it here: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/46/schedule/5/part/I (General Reservations), and here: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/46/schedule/5/part/II (Specific Reservations). So, anything not listed as reserved was devolved.

So the reserved powers - powers a devolved Scottish parliament doesn't have, but which an independent one would have - include: aspects of international relations, including
international development and the regulation of international trade; defence; fiscal and monetary policy; aspects of home affairs including drug abuse policy, immigration, national security and counter-terrorism; weights and measures, telecommunications, postal services; broadcasting; energy.

Here's some useful articles:


http://www.politicalinsightmagazine.com/?p=28

http://www.gerryhassan.com/uncategorized/from-the-how-to-the-why-of-scottish-independence/

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/27/opinion/independence-for-scotland.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/independence-part-1-how-scotland-has-changed.16607482

http://www.heraldscotland.com/comme...t-campaign-coalesce-round-one-leader.16827610
 
I find the belief that a similar government with similar policies is unlikely ever to come to power in an independent Scotland is a little optimistic, perhaps.
 
teuchter said:
I find the belief that a similar government with similar policies is unlikely ever to come to power in an independent Scotland is a little optimistic, perhaps.
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Indeed. It just doesn't wash as a reason for independence that no such government could come to power in Scotland. One might - Labour, for example. No, you need better arguments for (and against) independence than that the parties standing for election would be any different to those available elsewhere.
 
That said what will swing it is if looks like five more years of the Tories at Westminster. Milliband has bet the farm economy is goingto tank. There's opportunities starting to appear in our sector (which it usually a bit ahead of the curve) that make me think he may have backed the wrong horse, so could come down to perception of how effective UKIP will be at splitting Tory vote down south:eek:
Hope the spooks have something up their sleevies.
 
gosub said:
Hope the spooks have something up their sleevies.
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I am in no doubt that they have a fair bit up their sleeves.

But you're right: come polling day in autumn 2014, we will be just months short of the May 2015 Westminster General Election. If the Tories are looking strong at that point, there will be increased enthusiasm for independence. How much, though, is the question. I still doubt that Yes will win.
 
teuchter said:
I find the belief that a similar government with similar policies is unlikely ever to come to power in an independent Scotland is a little optimistic, perhaps.
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Not really, there is ample evidence that Scotland has a particular loathing for the tories and their policies. Any natural evolution of Scots politics would lean away from that, imo.

'unlikely ever' doesn't mean anything - I'm not arguing with you it could certainly happen but it would be rare, in my lifetime, I'm reasonably sure. If I live 30 years I think you may get 1 party like the tories in power for 4 or 5 years up here. If we're part of down south I wouldn't bet against 20 years of those 30
 
English settlers are as much a part of Scotland as Asian restaurateurs and shopkeepers, or the Italians who brought us fish and chips.
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I can't see a problem with his views tbh.
 
Quartz said:
Racist or what!
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I haven't read the original essay, but having read Gray for many years, including his political polemic, I very much doubt that he is, or has said anything, racist. Once I've read the essay, I'll let you know. But in the mean time, remember that the Scotsman and the SoS are Conservative-leaning, Unionist newspapers. Gray is a former SSP member, a socialist and a republican. We are also in the throws here of what promises to be a bitter and nasty debate on independence. I'm giving Gray the benefit of the doubt for now, rather than the Scotsman.
 
A lot of the people i've heard commenting on this piece seemed to have missed the point of his distinction between settlers colonists and believe that he was saying that asians and italians aren't really scottish - which is pretty much the exact opposite of what he was arguing.
 
butchersapron said:
A lot of the people i've heard commenting on this piece seemed to have missed the point of his distinction between settlers colonists and that he was saying that asians and italians aren't really scottish - which is pretty much the exact opposite of what he was arguing.
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It's the complete opposite. He was saying that anyone who is entitled to vote here counts as Scottish.
 
weepiper said:
It's the complete opposite. He was saying that anyone who is entitled to vote here counts as Scottish.
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He has always defined a Scot as someone who makes their life in Scotland. And as butchers says, he is very precise about what he means by colonists. In that he is very close to Frantz Fannon, who would not be described as a racist by those slurring Gray this way. I see no reason to suspect that Gray has changed his line.
 
Fannon was describing a rather different situation, though. He appears to be criticising the idea of someone moving to Scotland for a bit as a career advancement. But why not? Is it a problem that an American is artistic director of the Old Vic? Should Kevin Spacey commit himself to being British before taking such a job, or is it ok for someone to go to a country to work just for a bit? I find his choice of target rather problematic.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Fannon was describing a rather different situation, though. He appears to be criticising the idea of someone moving to Scotland for a bit as a career advancement. But why not? Is it a problem that an American is artistic director of the Old Vic? Should Kevin Spacey commit himself to being British before taking such a job, or is it ok for someone to go to a country to work just for a bit? I find his choice of target rather problematic.
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Because it prevents locals getting the work. It is a genuine problem in the arts in Scotland. For example I know two Scottish professional storytellers who've been consistently passed over for jobs in favour of people with English accents.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Fannon was describing a rather different situation, though. He appears to be criticising the idea of someone moving to Scotland for a bit as a career advancement. But why not? Is it a problem that an American is artistic director of the Old Vic? Should Kevin Spacey commit himself to being British before taking such a job, or is it ok for someone to go to a country to work just for a bit? I find his choice of target rather problematic.
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I'm not going to judge an essay I haven't read on the strength of the Scotsman's description of it. I'll let you know what I think once I've read what he is actually arguing.

It's on sale here: http://www.word-power.co.uk/books/unstated-I9780956628398/
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Fannon was describing a rather different situation, though. He appears to be criticising the idea of someone moving to Scotland for a bit as a career advancement. But why not? Is it a problem that an American is artistic director of the Old Vic? Should Kevin Spacey commit himself to being British before taking such a job, or is it ok for someone to go to a country to work just for a bit? I find his choice of target rather problematic.
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I think you need to read between the lines a bit there (or have some knowledge about his long held wider political views) - Gray is talking about an elite and elite jobs for a reason. I
 
Completely agree that you'd have to read the essay before coming to a view on the racist/not racist question. It wasn't just that that I thought was relevant to this thread though. Also the fact that he seems to be talking about "Scottish culture" as some kind of identifiable entity. To what extent people believe such a thing exists is tied up with the independence question.

I grew up in Scotland and yes I identify myself as "Scottish" to some extent, mainly when it happens to be convenient. But if somene asks me what "Scottish" is I'd find it hard to define. As a highlander would I be able to say I share some kind of culture with someone from Paisley more than with someone from the west coast of Ireland? Not so sure about that.
 
butchersapron said:
Yes, i'm quite pleased!

I see Kelman is backing a yes vote on anti-nationalist grounds.
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Yes, I've seen his comments. He's always seemed a rational man.

Here's a brief comment in an interview earlier this year:

Is the present debate about Scotland's independence too limited to lead to true empowerment?

"The SNP's debate is the only one the political establishment allows. It's pathetic that the SNP support the Queen. I was speaking with five Scottish writers recently: we all favour independence but none of us is a nationalist."
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http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...james-kelman-borderline-insanity-7984877.html

And a more considered essay:

http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2012/03/31/the-self-determination-of-yes/
 
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