Will you vote for independence?

[gosub]

Creative Scotland has been under attack for a while, is more an extension of and Arts industry row more than anything

 

[danny la rouge]

Fair enough, you three. I accept that there may be nuances here that I'm missing.

I have now acquired the book (more quickly than I expected), and have read the article. As expected, it is not in the least bit racist, continuing Gray's already well-known views and concerns. Anyone coming to the chapter wouldn't recognise it as the same one described by the Scotsman.

To answer Teuchter's point, he does not talk of a unitary Scottish culture, but rather of local arts scenes. For example, he talks of Glasgow theatre, of Gaelic poetry, of Dundee arts. He talks of people coming from localities, where he knows them.

He talks of settlers whom he thinks added much to culture in Scotland:

"One was Edward Dwelly, a Welshman who learned Gaelic, wrote the first reliable and complete Gaelic dictionary [...] Another was Frank Newbery from Devon, the director of Glasgow School of Art who got Mackintosh the commission to design his greatest building, and supported him when he was ostracised by other Glasgow architects. Still here is Timothy Neat, the Cornishman who lectured on design at Dundee College of Art. [...] he has promoted and commemorated the works of Hugh MacDiarmid, Hamish Henderson and Sorley MacLean - strong socialists often disparaged when not deliberately ignored by Scotland's media [...]" (p108)

He is disparaging of people born in Scotland who have no faith in Scottish talent, and of a Scottish ruling class with a sense of embarrassment about the people they ruled: "[...]a Scotland managed by folk who increasingly thought of their homeland as a province [...]" (p103).

He contrasts that with true settlers, who are good for the health of the community here, and he names some he knows the works of:

"I do not know or care if the true settlers I have mentioned will vote for Scottish independence in the 2014 referendum, as I certainly will. Their work here is good for us". (p109).

He concludes by saying "Only one question should be asked by that referendum: Do we who live in Scotland want an independent government?" Note the phrase "we who live in Scotland". He isn't excluding anyone from being a Scot by place of birth, nor from participating in the life of Scotland. He is disparaging of both those born in and out of Scotland who lack interest and faith in arts and culture in Scotland, but he does not equate an interest in Scottish arts and culture with support for independence. Settlers are good for Scotland whether or not they support independence. Note also that the phrase "we who live in Scotland" includes those he characterises as colonists.

Anyone seeing racism here is just looking for a way of smearing Gray. Shame on them.

 

[teuchter]

The bit quoted in the Scotsman article which aroused my interest was:

Without identifying Dixon, and writing before his much publicised departure after an artists’ revolt against the way the agency was being run, Gray says Creative Scotland appointed a director who “was not Scottish, admitted to knowing nothing of Scottish culture but said he was willing to learn. Ain’t Scotland lucky.”

But re-reading it, it's not entirely clear whether that's a quote from this essay, or from something else?

 

[danny la rouge]

The bit quoted in the Scotsman article which aroused my interest was:

But re-reading it, it's not entirely clear whether that's a quote from this essay, or from something else?

It's from this essay. It is misrepresented by the Scotsman, though. The issue that Gray has with Dixon is not his Englishness. It is the colonist attitude (as much attributed by Gray to the native employers) of thinking that appointing as director of an organisation which claims "It's our job to help Scotland's creativity shine at home and abroad" (their mission statement) someone who openly said he knew nothing of Scottish culture, is a good idea.

For avoidance of doubt, he has by this point in the essay already discussed Scots who have gone elsewhere with this attitude, "colonists and settlers from Scotland [who] helped the London government to establish and administer a British Empire" (p103). He explains the difference between a colonist and a settler, and deplores those arts administrators invited to Scotland by the Scots [whom we already know he defines as 'those of us who live in Scotland'] who were colonists "not because they eventually retired to England or were promoted to other jobs there, but because their work for institutions originally created to encourage art in Scotland actually depressed it" (p106).

For those who haven't followed the Creative Scotland débâcle, this from the Herald is a quick précis:

'News of Dixon's departure came two months after the publication of a devastating letter of criticism signed by more than 400 artists, writers, playwrights and musicians. It lambasted Creative Scotland's "ill-conceived decision-making; unclear language, lack of empathy and regard for Scottish culture". ​

​

Among the signatories was writer AL Kennedy. She said yesterday: "You need somebody who isn't going to do empty business-speak, who'll actually talk about things and engage with the issues' (Herald).​

In that context, and the context of what Gray has already explained, it is very mendacious of the Scotsman to alight on one phrase coming later in the piece, and put a spin on it he has been quite clear is not intended. Dixon et al are not criticised for being English, or returning to England, but "because their work for institutions originally created to encourage art in Scotland actually depressed it".

 

[Firky]

Meanwhile in Berwick, Northumberland...

"Can we Be Scottish whilst living in England?"

 

[danny la rouge]

Meanwhile in Berwick, Northumberland...

"Can we Be Scottish whilst living in England?"

You can be Scottish and live anywhere, visa permitting.

 

[danny la rouge]

Incidentally, it's highly likely there will BE no SNP by that point!

"The SNP has vehemently denied it has plans to disband after suggestions the party might cease to exist if there was a Yes vote in 2014". (Herald).

There's certainly no precedence for a party of 'liberation' disbanding upon independence. (See South Africa, India, Ireland, etc). Those parties glory in their achievements, and become the party of government. Then what happens is that the ruling classes flock to the party of liberation, and any radical embers are dampened by the blanket of business backers. South Africa is the classic model here.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

"The SNP has vehemently denied it has plans to disband after suggestions the party might cease to exist if there was a Yes vote in 2014". (Herald).

There's certainly no precedence for a party of 'liberation' disbanding upon independence. (See South Africa, India, Ireland, etc). Those parties glory in their achievements, and become the party of government. Then what happens is that the ruling classes flock to the party of liberation, and any radical embers are dampened by the blanket of business backers. South Africa is the classic model here.

As long as Salmond doesn't take four wives and start singing about his AK47 at conferences.

 

[butchersapron]

One arts council director - one bullet.

(Plus, of course, the SNP are in power, not challenging existing power relations via their political representation of an unenfranchised bloc)

 

[gosub]

"The SNP has vehemently denied it has plans to disband after suggestions the party might cease to exist if there was a Yes vote in 2014". (Herald).

There's certainly no precedence for a party of 'liberation' disbanding upon independence. (See South Africa, India, Ireland, etc). Those parties glory in their achievements, and become the party of government. Then what happens is that the ruling classes flock to the party of liberation, and any radical embers are dampened by the blanket of business backers. South Africa is the classic model here.

Re: South Africa Liberty Life bank rolled the ANC for years prior to the end of apartheid, being heavily into life insurance were none too happy with Zuma's take on HIV

 

[danny la rouge]

One arts council director - one bullet.

(Plus, of course, the SNP are in power, not challenging existing power relations via their political representation of an unenfranchised bloc)

Indeed, but the aspect that was being discussed was the dissolution of the SNP post-independence: it wouldn't happen. Of course there are many dissimilarities, but in that respect the comparison is valid.

 

[teuchter]

It's from this essay. It is misrepresented by the Scotsman, though. The issue that Gray has with Dixon is not his Englishness. It is the colonist attitude (as much attributed by Gray to the native employers) of thinking that appointing as director of an organisation which claims "It's our job to help Scotland's creativity shine at home and abroad" (their mission statement) someone who openly said he knew nothing of Scottish culture, is a good idea.

For avoidance of doubt, he has by this point in the essay already discussed Scots who have gone elsewhere with this attitude, "colonists and settlers from Scotland [who] helped the London government to establish and administer a British Empire" (p103). He explains the difference between a colonist and a settler, and deplores those arts administrators invited to Scotland by the Scots [whom we already know he defines as 'those of us who live in Scotland'] who were colonists "not because they eventually retired to England or were promoted to other jobs there, but because their work for institutions originally created to encourage art in Scotland actually depressed it" (p106).

For those who haven't followed the Creative Scotland débâcle, this from the Herald is a quick précis:

'News of Dixon's departure came two months after the publication of a devastating letter of criticism signed by more than 400 artists, writers, playwrights and musicians. It lambasted Creative Scotland's "ill-conceived decision-making; unclear language, lack of empathy and regard for Scottish culture". ​

​

Among the signatories was writer AL Kennedy. She said yesterday: "You need somebody who isn't going to do empty business-speak, who'll actually talk about things and engage with the issues' (Herald).​

In that context, and the context of what Gray has already explained, it is very mendacious of the Scotsman to alight on one phrase coming later in the piece, and put a spin on it he has been quite clear is not intended. Dixon et al are not criticised for being English, or returning to England, but "because their work for institutions originally created to encourage art in Scotland actually depressed it".

Ok. But if the issue is that the person appointed was not competent to do the job, rather than their nationality, why mention their nationality at all?

 

[teuchter]

Those parties glory in their achievements, and become the party of government. Then what happens is that the ruling classes flock to the party of liberation, and any radical embers are dampened by the blanket of business backers

Back home over christmas, I was talking to various people about independence. There does seem to be a generally held belief that Scotland is a fundamentally "more socialist" nation than the UK as a whole (prescription charges/university fees seem to be the favourite examples given). I was asking whether they were confident this would continue to be the case post independence. The answer seemed generally to be yes.

The question that arises for me is: the process you describe above - why has this not already taken place in the devolved parliament? Or has it, but people haven't noticed? Is Mr Trump relevant here?

Are there examples that demonstrate the SNP moving to the right since being in a position of power?

 

[danny la rouge]

There does seem to be a generally held belief that Scotland is a fundamentally "more socialist" nation than the UK as a whole (prescription charges/university fees seem to be the favourite examples given).

That is indeed a widely held view, but I think it's an erroneous one, a fact your examples ought to alert us to: neither of those policies is necessarily socialist.

I'm busy now, but yes, the SNP has moved rightward since being in power. I'll fish out some instances in due course.

 

[danny la rouge]

I have a few minutes now to tell you about the shift of Alex Salmond, former avowed socialist and republican, who went on to become the friend and confidante of Messers Soutar, Murdoch and Trump, and wishes to retain the Queen as head of a Scottish State; the party which used to be anti-NATO but now isn't; the SNP's "business-friendly" policies such as reductions in corporation tax; and the transformation of anti-poll tax campaigning firebrand Kenny McAskill into the priggish, authoritarian loon who said drinking in front of your children was like paedophilia.

 

[geminisnake]

At least wee Eck has fallen out with all the pricks mentioned(and come a bit more back to reality) since but Kenny has lost the plot. And for all that I'd still say the party as a whole is considerably more democratic than any of the others.

 

[danny la rouge]

At least wee Eck has fallen out with all the pricks mentioned(and come a bit more back to reality) since but Kenny has lost the plot. And for all that I'd still say the party as a whole is considerably more democratic than any of the others.

Democratic in what way? Internal party structure, or in policy terms?

On another question, it is often said that the SNP is to the left of Labour, and while that is true, it is about as much of an accomplishment as having appointed fewer horses to the the senate than Caligula.

 

[geminisnake]

In that everyone gets a vote(at conference) on what policy/ies to adopt. It was the only conference I saw that had a damn good turnout too.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a SNP supporter. I despise SNP at a local level(where I am) I think they are a shower of pricks that are only interested in themselves but nationally they don't seem so bad and they are considerably better than the other two.

 

[danny la rouge]

In that everyone gets a vote(at conference) on what policy/ies to adopt. It was the only conference I saw that had a damn good turnout too.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a SNP supporter. I despise SNP at a local level(where I am) I think they are a shower of pricks that are only interested in themselves but nationally they don't seem so bad and they are considerably better than the other two.

I'll be corrected if I'm wrong, but I think each branch and constituency association gets a delegate, but those delegates are not mandated by the branch, so it isn't one member one vote, and the branches have to trust that the delegate will vote the way they hope.

It does seem to be the case that the SNP has a considerably stronger grassroots organisation than the other parties, though, by which I mean they appear to have more active members in more areas than either Labour or the Tories, which is a different thing to the absolute membership levels. In absolute terms too, they claim to have 24,000 members as opposed to Scottish Labour's 17,000.

 

[geminisnake]

I dunno either, would need to ask a friend. Her hubby is a SNP councillor atm. They just seem to be a lot more democratic than any of the others.

I'd want to see independent figures for SLab tbh. I don't think they've told the truth about anything for years.

 

[danny la rouge]

I'd want to see independent figures for SLab tbh. I don't think they've told the truth about anything for years.

 

[mdc]

I will be voting yes,

 

[bi0boy]

the question is the exact wording that Salmond has said he's going to use.

The question isn't flawed, it's the one that Salmond wants on the ballot paper. The sample of 180 is too small, though.

I hate to say "I told you so" but, I told you so.

Really? I'm sure he won't get away with it.

"Do you agree X should happen?" always tends to invite a response of "yes".

"The Scottish government has agreed to change the wording of its independence referendum question, after concerns it may lead people to vote 'Yes'. SNP ministers wanted to ask voters the yes/no question: "Do you agree that Scotland should be an independent country?" in autumn 2014. The wording of the question now looks set to be altered to: "Should Scotland be an independent country?" The change was suggested by the Electoral Commission watchdog.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-21245701

 

[danny la rouge]

I hate to say "I told you so" but, I told you so.

The point I was making was that the poll we were discussing asked the question Salmond wanted to ask. The poll was therefore measuring the response to the question Salmond wanted to ask. Another poll taken now could measure the response to this question. Whether or not "should" invites "yes" is therefore irrelevant to whether such a poll would be "shitty".

 

[geminisnake]

I truly don't see how 'do you agree' is vastly different to should and tbh does it really matter? If the wording is the best the bitter together & EC can come up with

Maybe the question should be do you want rid of the dozy arses at Westminster?

 

[DexterTCN]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentis...tish-independence-referendum-question-cartoon

 

[Quartz]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a SNP supporter. I despise SNP at a local level(where I am) I think they are a shower of pricks that are only interested in themselves but nationally they don't seem so bad and they are considerably better than the other two.

That's not a particularly high bar, though.

 

[butchersapron]

How are you voting Quartz?

 

[geminisnake]

That's not a particularly high bar, though.

No but at least they HAVE ideas and plans rather than just object to whatever the other side says/does. And they don't pick on the sick, disabled, old or poor.

 

[purenarcotic]

I truly don't see how 'do you agree' is vastly different to should and tbh does it really matter? If the wording is the best the bitter together & EC can come up with

Maybe the question should be do you want rid of the dozy arses at Westminster?

Of course wording matters. Leading questions are proven to sway people to give an answer of agreement.