Will you vote for independence?

[butchersapron]

Not really my point. My point wasn't to do with who would be playing the hand for Scotland, but now strong that hand would be.

For who?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

For who?

That question sums up the problem. For 'Scotland'. And just as danny put this in inverted commas, so do I. But it's a point anyone who wants independence for this 'Scotland' needs to think about, I would suggest.

 

[danny la rouge]

That question sums up the problem. For 'Scotland'. And just as danny put this in inverted commas, so do I. But it's a point anyone who wants independence for this 'Scotland' needs to think about, I would suggest.

We're going to run into problems if everything is in inverted commas, mind! What about "independence"?

 

[kebabking]

We're going to run into problems if everything is in inverted commas, mind! What about "independence"?

'independence' isn't a bad one - the SNP say they would prefer a currency solution that see's an Independent Scotland retain Sterling, with Sterling goverened by the Bank of England, and the Bank of England as the lender of last resort for the newly independent Scotland.

i would ask, in that scenario - and thinking back to the 2008/2009 financial crisis and the role the BoE played - quite how 'independent' Scotland would be?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

We're going to run into problems if everything is in inverted commas, mind! What about "independence"?

Certainly. As I said earlier in this thread, all you're going to get is a United Kingdom of the United Kingdom of England and Wales and Northern Ireland and Scotland.

 

[danny la rouge]

'independence' isn't a bad one - the SNP say they would prefer a currency solution that see's an Independent Scotland retain Sterling, with Sterling goverened by the Bank of England, and the Bank of England as the lender of last resort for the newly independent Scotland.

i would ask, in that scenario - and thinking back to the 2008/2009 financial crisis and the role the BoE played - quite how 'independent' Scotland would be?

Well, there's no way any state can be totally independent. Not even Imperial Rome was.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

'independence' isn't a bad one - the SNP say they would prefer a currency solution that see's an Independent Scotland retain Sterling, with Sterling goverened by the Bank of England, and the Bank of England as the lender of last resort for the newly independent Scotland.

i would ask, in that scenario - and thinking back to the 2008/2009 financial crisis and the role the BoE played - quite how 'independent' Scotland would be?

They are also likely to share common defence and immigration policies, among many others. With the general thrust of the policies being set by London.

 

[danny la rouge]

http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2013/02/12/the-state-of-the-union/

I refer of course to the extraordinary document produced buy the UK Govt which states: 3 7. “For the purpose of this advice, it is not necessary to decide between these two views of the union of 1707. Whether or not England was also extinguished by the union, Scotland certainly was extinguished as a matter of international law, by merger either into an enlarged and renamed England or into an entirely new state.”
[...]

Moore’s Paradox: an independent Scotland would not inherit the UK’s existing international treaties but would inherit a share of the UK national debt, according to the Scottish Secretary.

 

[kebabking]

They are also likely to share common defence and immigration policies, among many others. With the general thrust of the policies being set by London.

this is what i don't understand - if 'independence' is going to be, in effect Devo-Max but with more antagonism, why not just go for Devo-Max, (which is what, apparently, most of Scotland wants, and pretty much what everyone else wants as well) but without the bunfights?

obviously i understand the party political importance of 'independence' to the SNP, but lets try to imagine thats not the most important part of the whole debate...

 

[danny la rouge]

this is what i don't understand - if 'independence' is going to be, in effect Devo-Max but with more antagonism, why not just go for Devo-Max, (which is what, apparently, most of Scotland wants, and pretty much what everyone else wants as well) but without the bunfights?

It isn't on offer.

 

[danny la rouge]

More from the Herald: http://www.heraldscotland.com/polit...scotland-may-need-more-public-bodies.20191766

AN independent Scotland might need up to 200 organisations and thousands more members of staff to replicate the functions currently provided at a UK level, the Coalition Government has suggested in new analysis.

Which seems to contradict what they've being saying recently about all the jobs they think would be lost...

 

[kebabking]

It isn't on offer.

its not on offer in the referendum, but in political terms its been on offer for a decade or more - Salmond was continually talking about Devo-Max before the referendum was finalised, and not being dismissive of it, and both Labour and Tory parties and governments have said it would be entirely acceptable.

 

[danny la rouge]

its not on offer in the referendum, but in political terms its been on offer for a decade or more - Salmond was continually talking about Devo-Max before the referendum was finalised, and not being dismissive of it, and both Labour and Tory parties and governments have said it would be entirely acceptable.

No party came forward proposing it, though. Neither Labour nor Lib Dems, whatever noises they may have made in the past, have stepped up to say that it's their preferred option. Since we have a system where we can only vote for what we're offered, the choices are whatever form of independence the SNP might negotiate, or the status quo.

 

[kebabking]

No party came forward proposing it, though. Neither Labour nor Lib Dems, whatever noises they may have made in the past, have stepped up to say that it's their preferred option. Since we have a system where we can only vote for what we're offered, the choices are whatever form of independence the SNP might negotiate, or the status quo.

fairly easy to fix though - all the UK parties would have to do is say that in the event of a 'no' vote, they would all put Devo-Max for Scotland in their manifesto for the 2015 GE.

seems the sensible option to me...

 

[danny la rouge]

fairly easy to fix though - all the UK parties would have to do is say that in the event of a 'no' vote, they would all put Devo-Max for Scotland in their manifesto for the 2015 GE.

seems the sensible option to me...

Well, that might remind people of Douglas-Home's infamous promise in 79 that if Scots voted No, they'd get "something better".

 

[geminisnake]

fairly easy to fix though - all the UK parties would have to do is say that in the event of a 'no' vote, they would all put Devo-Max for Scotland in their manifesto for the 2015 GE.

seems the sensible option to me...

But why should we believe them?? They've lied about virtually everything for years, especially when it has to do with Scotland. If it comes out of Westminster in relation to Scotland I don't believe it til I've checked myself with several other sources.

 

[geminisnake]

but it looks fairly obvious that if the 'divorce' talks go badly, the rump UK, as an entrenched member of the above organisations, could make things very difficult for an independent Scotland looking to join them under advantagous conditions.

a bit like if your ex-wife was on the interviewing panel for a job you were going for...

Are you aware of the crap the Tories have been spouting lately blaming the EU for everything they can't blame SNP for? The EU are aware of this and also unhappy about a number of other things the Tories are doing or are refusing to do. I'm not sure Scotland's position will be that weak.

 

[kebabking]

...I'm not sure Scotland's position will be that weak.

England, Wales and NI will be a current EU member with a population of about 58million and will have a top 5 economy in the EU. Scotland will be an applicant country with a population of 5m, and, what, a top 15/top 20 economy in the EU.

some within the EU, both member states and the EU institutions, might have the hump with the Tories, but thats not going to trump those countries individual self-interest in keeping the rump UK onside. if that means being a bit stiff with a small appicant country with rapidly reducing hydro-carbon deposits, then Scotland will get the shitty end of the EU's stick.

Scotland (or, at any rate, Alex Salmond) has its own wishlist: in the accession negotiations he needs some form of opt-out from the single currency, and he could do with help with Fishing. Scotland is not going to walk into these negotiations with all the aces - its going to have relatively few 'good' cards, and he's going to need favours from the existing members and the EU structures in order to get his wishlist: his life is going to be much more difficult if London wants to throw a spanner in his works - he knows that, and so does London.

 

[danny la rouge]

Independence campaign will be ‘annihilated’ says Clegg

 

[geminisnake]

applicant country with rapidly reducing hydro-carbon deposits.

Aye, ok then. They've been saying the oil is running out for 40 yrs now and still they are finding more.

Sorry Danny but I just can't be arsed reading anything that Clegg spouts anymore. The man is a spineless, self interested dick with the integrity of a wet paper bag.

 

[gosub]

Presume you didn't hear Salmond on the today program the other week, telling Sarah Montague she was taking Barroso out of context when it was her who'd who'd interviewed him. He's no better than the rest of them

 

[kebabking]

Aye, ok then. They've been saying the oil is running out for 40 yrs now and still they are finding more.

unless you are suggesting that the ground is 'growing' oil and gas faster than we're taking them out, then they are diminishing.

 

[geminisnake]

unless you are suggesting that the ground is 'growing' oil and gas faster than we're taking them out, then they are diminishing.

How can a new untouched field be diminished?? There is enough oil for another 40 yrs in the North Sea, there are new finds off the NW coast, they are not going to disappear overnight.
Tbh even if there was NO oil and No resources and I had to eat grass or beans & toast for the rest of my life it would still be worth it to get rid of Westminster. That's the growing feeling ime so unless you are me and are living my life there's nothing you can say to change my mind

 

[8ball]

Tbh even if there was NO oil and No resources and I had to eat grass or beans & toast for the rest of my life it would still be worth it to get rid of Westminster.

Whereas here in England there is no option on the table re: getting rid of Westminster.

 

[geminisnake]

Whereas here in England there is no option on the table re: getting rid of Westminster.

The people have to do something to change it, but unfortunately I don't know what And no, you can't all move up here

 

[danny la rouge]

I'm in the Burgh Coffee House in Stirling at the moment and outside the window there's a Yes Scotland stand. I'm wondering whether to go and engage them in debate

 

[danny la rouge]

A Unionist was haranguing them, so I didn't bother. I took a leaflet, but learned nothing.

 

[danny la rouge]

The Daily Record had this to say today: http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/true-benefit-of-benefits-1729552

(For those who don't want to click a Record link, it says:

Sarah-Jane [Walls, a "self-made entrepreneur who grew up on benefits as a child"] believes Scotland being independent is the best way to stop the welfare state being eroded.

We at the Daily Record are not so convinced. We have been vigorously campaigning against welfare cuts and will continue to do so. But is breaking up Britain really a cure to all our problems?

It’s hard to see how it will be.

But Sarah-Jane’s articulate and informed piece in today’s Record is exactly the type of contribution the debate on Scotland’s future needs.

And we urge Cameron and his henchman Iain Duncan Smith to read it closely. They won’t, of course, but they should.)​

​

Her piece: http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/businesswoman-sarah-jane-how-benefits-system-1730392​

​

​

 

[DexterTCN]

No-one ever said it would be a cure for every problem.

That's a very good article, more about common sense than independence though.

 

[teuchter]

Tbh even if there was NO oil and No resources and I had to eat grass or beans & toast for the rest of my life it would still be worth it to get rid of Westminster. That's the growing feeling ime so unless you are me and are living my life there's nothing you can say to change my mind

I just hope that most voters in the referendum will base their decision on a slightly more considered response to the situation than this.

That grass that you would be happy to live on - is it the greener type, always to be found on the other side?