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Will you vote for independence?

Scottish independence?

  • Yes please

    Votes: 99 56.6%
  • No thanks

    Votes: 57 32.6%
  • Dont know yet

    Votes: 17 9.7%

  • Total voters
    175
No-one ever said it would be a cure for every problem.

That's a very good article, more about common sense than independence though.
True. It's part of the debate, though. And more surprisingly, the Record recognises that.

Here's another little snippet: "An independent Scotland would not have to renegotiate 14,000 international treaties, the UK Government has admitted". (Herald).
 
The daily record takes an anti-cuts stance on benefits? I've only ever encountered the paper in corby work canteens- always seemed like a scots Sun to me.
 
DotCommunist said:
The daily record takes an anti-cuts stance on benefits? I've only ever encountered the paper in corby work canteens- always seemed like a scots Sun to me.

It's a horrible reactionary rag in many ways, but thinks of itself as left leaning in that it usually supports Labour. ie not at all left leaning.

It once ran a front page saying an asylum seeker who'd been murdered was asking for it and smeared his character, and during the Clause 28 debate came out as homophobic.

The asylum seeker was called Firsat Dag. The Record not only put its racism on show, but also seemed to condone, or at least excuse, the murder in Glasgow, of Kurdish refugee Firsat Dag. "Stabbed Turk Firsat Conned his Way in as Asylum Seeker" raged the disgraceful front page banner. Its information came from the Turkish government, from whose anti-Kurd oppression Dag was fleeing, but that did not deter the Record from describing Dag, in the wake of his murder, as a "con man who came to this country to make a fast buck". There can be no justification for this type of journalism. It cannot even be called unconscious racism: it is open, vile and unacceptable. The Record is a nasty organ.
 
I keep going to other threads....something jumps into my head and I come back here to post it, decide it's too childish, go away. Repeat, repeat.

I'm having UKOK frenzy. UKOK's all I can think about :(
 
12%(actually less than that coz there were some independence votes) of the student population does NOT equate a resounding victory for the Bitter together campaign :rolleyes:
 
That's a very eloquent defence of the welfare state but it fails to say or make any link to how independence would make that better.
Indeed.

However, there is a widely held belief that Scots voters are more supportive of the welfare state than are English voters. This of course is open to question; it is none-the-less widely held, (by both supporters of both the Yes camp and the No camp). The implication is that by having the welfare system in Scottish control rather than Westminster control, the welfare state in Scotland will be protected, since Westminster parties of all stripes seem bent on dismantling it. "Value the hard-won welfare system? - independence is the only way to protect it", goes the theory. (Because England is bigger and has more voters, and therefore their majority view will hold sway).

There are obvious points to make to that theory (for example, that it does not follow that because Westminster parties are anti-Welfare State it is due to English voters wanting them to be), but that is the logic behind the article. Even the Record (in the No camp) doesn't question that logic, it only questions whether an independent Scotland would mean the welfare state was protected.
 
, England and Wales get all the debt from bailing out Scottish banks:confused:

Really?? How many times does it need to be pointed out that RBS and BoS are scottish in NAME only and have been that way for a VERY long time??
And don't believe a fucking thing you read in the Scotsman <spits> It's a 'in the red' pile of shit and has been for a long.

And Westminster can't have it both ways. If we(Scotland) are a new country we start from scratch whereas if we are a successor state we pay our share of the debt AND we have a share of the assets. This is international law, UN governed.
 
Odd then than Edinburgh airport has huge signs declaring it the home of the rbs and both hbos and rbs are significant Scottish employers who along with the Australian owned clydesdale print all the money. but no, no fuck it nothing do with Scotland
 
YAWN RBS are a bunch of lying tory cunts, have been for a long time. Imo RBS was partly bailed out because of Coutts.
I totally disagree with any politicians on this, think we should follow the Icelandic approach. Bail out the people, not the bankers. If the bankers were such financial genuises why the fuck did they need bailed out?

3. International banking law states that banking bailouts are the responsibility of the country in which the debt was accummulated. It has nothing to do with the HQ. RBS was bailed out by the US Reserve too for it's American debts. 90% of RBS's debt was accumulated in England - their responsiblity.
 
Odd then than Edinburgh airport has huge signs declaring it the home of the rbs and both hbos and rbs are significant Scottish employers who along with the Australian owned clydesdale print all the money. but no, no fuck it nothing do with Scotland

The head office may still be here but RBS stopped being a Scottish bank back around 1980 and its "Scottishness" was arguable even then as it had been expanding on national/international lines since what, the late 1960s?

As for HBOS, that is now firmly in English ownership and the Edinburgh office is merely the "Head Office" for its Scottish operations. Before then, the HBOS head office was a condition of merger rather than any reflection of the banks merger with Halifax, which left it top-heavy for South of the Border and the mortgage division that nearly dragged them under was in the English, Halifax part of the structure.
 
Odd then than Edinburgh airport has huge signs declaring it the home of the rbs and both hbos and rbs are significant Scottish employers who along with the Australian owned clydesdale print all the money. but no, no fuck it nothing do with Scotland
I went to Stratford and it said it was the home of William Shakespeare. He wasn't actually there, it was just one of his houses.
 
Odd then than Edinburgh airport has huge signs declaring it the home of the rbs and both hbos and rbs are significant Scottish employers who along with the Australian owned clydesdale print all the money. but no, no fuck it nothing do with Scotland
English places don't usually take that money, I've found.

We take yours. It's a bit rude, you know.
 
Odd then than Edinburgh airport has huge signs declaring it the home of the rbs and both hbos and rbs are significant Scottish employers who along with the Australian owned clydesdale print all the money. but no, no fuck it nothing do with Scotland
This is the problem with nationalism; it invites these kind of knee-jerk nationalist responses. Is it really going to be a serious argument that big, international institutions are in some way the responsibility of all the people who happen to live in the country they have a head office? Are the people of England responsible for the failings of Lloyds, with its extensive activity in the US, Asia, the Middle East and mainland Europe? What about Shell, with its registered office in London, but with the full name of Royal Dutch Shell plc? Or Vodafone, with its controlling interest in one of the largest US cell phone operators, Verizon Wireless?

People really need to look further into bank bailouts, austerity and neoliberalism than "where is the head office of this corporation?"
 
Gordon Wilson: ‘Scots could see second referendum’ (Scotsman).

FORMER SNP leader Gordon Wilson says Scots should be asked to vote in a second “multi- option” referendum after independence – to settle the country’s EU membership, currency and defence.

[...]

The man who led the SNP in the 1980s has launched a new think-tank called Options for Scotland which will aim to set out the choices for Scots in a series of policy papers – if they vote Yes next year. Mr Wilson said the next 18 months would be an “exciting time” as the country wrestled with its constitutional future.

“If Scotland votes Yes, this excitement will increase as this nation is engrossed in the negotiations for transition and the Independence Bill which will set out the agreed political, constitutional and practical issues that will follow,” he said.

Mr Wilson would like to see the subject of a multi-option referendum giving the Scottish people a say on Europe, defence and the currency be discussed more widely. “In itself, the need for such a post-independence referendum will be another source of debate,” he said.

In the actual article, "could" transforms itself into "should". The article ends with the Yes campaign saying "we are not aware of this forming the platform of any of the parties in Scotland".
 
This is the problem with nationalism; it invites these kind of knee-jerk nationalist responses. Is it really going to be a serious argument that big, international institutions are in some way the responsibility of all the people who happen to live in the country they have a head office? Are the people of England responsible for the failings of Lloyds, with its extensive activity in the US, Asia, the Middle East and mainland Europe? What about Shell, with its registered office in London, but with the full name of Royal Dutch Shell plc? Or Vodafone, with its controlling interest in one of the largest US cell phone operators, Verizon Wireless?

People really need to look further into bank bailouts, austerity and neoliberalism than "where is the head office of this corporation?"

Couldn't agree more "It started in America" when it was AIG's trading out of UK that caused major problems, followed by the UK brancrupcy rules (still not changed), when the US Government made its decision not to prop it up, US didn't prop up American International Group cos it had American in the title, its registered in the US, as was Lehman's. That it was the UK that had to deal with RBS, because banking regulation wasn't devolved.




http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...nd-bank-regulation-illegal-says-industry.html
 
Couldn't agree more "It started in America" when it was AIG's trading out of UK that caused major problems, followed by the UK brancrupcy rules (still not changed), when the US Government made its decision not to prop it up, US didn't prop up American International Group cos it had American in the title, its registered in the US, as was Lehman's. That it was the UK that had to deal with RBS, because banking regulation wasn't devolved.




http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...nd-bank-regulation-illegal-says-industry.html

I see you have linked to a story about the SNP. Maybe we’d better clear something up: I’m neither a supporter of the SNP, nor a nationalist. I’m not sure if you think I am or not, but I thought it best to get that out in the open. Because I’m not really sure what point you’re making in your post.

Let me put my case.

It is my view that there has not been a “national bailout” by the Westminster government. It has been a bailout of the banks and the capitalist class. The rest of the financial system as we know it has not been bailed out. Their debts have been forgiven, their iniquities absolved, and their institutions shored up.

By contrast, the people have not been bailed out. Instead, the people must pay the price. Homeowners have been foreclosed on, wages are frozen and cut, pensions are destroyed, and the welfare state is attacked. There is nothing “national” about this bailout: it is a class project. It is about consolidating class power. They have protected the banks and unleashed an attack on the people.

The decision by Westminster parties was not made to protect the people of the UK; it was made to protect the class interests the political parties serve. It was the latest act of the neoliberal project to do what it always does: use state power to protect the financial institutions, at the expense of the people.

We are seeing what the banks are doing with the money they’ve been given. They aren’t lending it to people; they’re buying up other banks. The capitalist class is retrenching. They can see that there’s a problem here that needs to be solved – if credit for the working class is over, then a new financial structure will need to be found, but it won’t be for our benefit, and may well be to our detriment. The dialogue we see going on at the moment about the financial institutions amply illustrates that. The old way of exploiting us – chiefly “financialization” (see David Harvey’s book, Neoliberalism, pp160 – 165) - has broken down. They are casting about now to find new, more fundamental ways of doing so.

To go along with their version of events, their explanations, is to play into their hands. This crisis was not caused by irresponsible borrowers. We are not “all in this together”. We are not responsible for the crisis. We are the ones paying for it.

To talk about the people of the UK being responsible for the banks is wrong-headed. When the ruling parties bailed them out, they did not do so on our behalf, but on behalf of those they are there to look after: the capitalist class.

There is no such thing as an “English” share of that responsibility or a “Scottish” share of that responsibility, since it is not a national project; it is a class project. The people – wherever they live - are the scapegoats and the patsies, not the cause of the crisis.
 
It was yet another 'scare' tactic. Has anyone actually asked the Shetlanders if they want independence? I doubt it. Tavish is a twat trying to get a bite. The LD leadership are ignoring their own supporters. They do this at their own risk I hope!
The scottish leader hasn't even got his own fecking seat FFS! He got 5% of the vote iirc and got in as a list candidate, just like the tory leader Ruthie.

I'm not convinced the LDs will have a mainland seat after the next election.
 
what's the support for independence polling at currently then? any changes? proper cringeworthy that lame story about those UKOK divs winning the vote at glasgow uni (with a 12% turnout!) and this supposedly being an accurate portrayal of how things will play out, but....
 
what's the support for independence polling at currently then? any changes? proper cringeworthy that lame story about those UKOK divs winning the vote at glasgow uni (with a 12% turnout!) and this supposedly being an accurate portrayal of how things will play out, but....
The last one I know of was the Ipsos-Mori in February, which put the question: "Should Scotland be an independent country?". 34% of those certain to vote said ‘Yes’
 
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