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Will you vote for independence?

Scottish independence?

  • Yes please

    Votes: 99 56.6%
  • No thanks

    Votes: 57 32.6%
  • Dont know yet

    Votes: 17 9.7%

  • Total voters
    175
I won't vote for independence. I think it's the foolish idea yet... and all the economy of Scotland is dependent on the UK's. If Scotland went independent, it wouldn't be able to survive on only tourism.
There have been some uninformed comments on this topic, but that one is up there with Nicky Clarke the celebrity hairdresser.

Here is a piece from the Financial Times, last month, pointing out that an independent Scotland can expect to start with healthier state finances than the rest of the UK.

The FT is in no doubt that Scotland has got what it takes to be a successful independent country.

The paper says that "both sides accept that Scotland has all the ingredients to be a viable nation state".

The FT adds: "If its geographic share of UK oil and gas output is taken into account, Scotland’s GDP per head is bigger than that of France.

"Even excluding the North Sea’s hydrocarbon bounty, per capita GDP is higher than that of Italy. Oil, whisky and a broad range of manufactured goods mean an independent Scotland would be one of the world’s top 35 exporters.

"An independent Scotland could also expect to start with healthier state finances than the rest of the UK".

All the evidence is that an independent Scotland would have a very viable economy. There are many more industries in Scotland than just tourism, and there are enough countries Scotland's size to show that a country of 5 million people can be economically successful. You may disagree with the SNP's economic policies - as, for example, the chief Whitehall advisor Prof Gavin McCrone does in his book "Scottish Independence: Weighing Up the Economics", but even he agrees that Scotland has what it takes.

Did you get your information from Nicky Clarke?

 
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I'm amused by Gordon Brown who is today arguing for "reform of the UK to deliver a power-sharing partnership of nations", something he didn't get round to implementing or even mentioning during his time in Number 10.

Similarly, Ming Campbell, is calling for "enhanced devolution". A vague plan his party has not pursued in its time in government since 2010. His "new tax-raising powers [which] could be delivered to Scotland in the event of a "No" vote" are a poor relative of Lord Home's 'Vote No for something better' in the '79 devolution referendum.
 
he can go live on Murrays mound in a tent, where he can have all the middle age tennis mums he likes to bring him pimms and service his vile lusts
 
Do you live in Scotland? How is free prescriptions, free healthcare, bus passes for over 60s and free higher education right wing? There are other parties out there, all over the UK that are not right wing. Ok they maybe need more support but they are out there. I suggest you look for them.

You have some very strange ideas but you are entitled to your own opinion. I suggest you read the whole thread(there's loads of links to relevant info) and look at google if you want to learn about the SNP. While you're at it it might be worth looking up Plaid Cymru, who are also very right wing, not!

I live in Scotland and I have also lived in Wales and England. I am also signed up to the NSSN. An organisation that agree with me in saying that the TUC itself is acting in favour of right wing politics. You tell me where the BIG "non corporate, bank influenced political parties are"? I've looked for them. They simply are not there.

As far as being entitled to my own opinion. I don't need affirmation from you or anybody else about that. It's a shame that the SNP government don't think the same though!

I'm not looking for left wing parties anyway! I don't know why you should Suggest I look for them. I simply wish to state that I have severe reservations about the SNP. Irrespective of the outcome of the independence vote. I don't see that independence will make any difference to the state of things. Other than providing a pre ordained outcome to a media/political circus show.

I live in an SNP area and I know what right wing means! I grew up in thatchers Britain and still have the scars. I also know a plaid Cymru member very well and I know how right wing and even racist he is towards the English.

There are also very many SNP followers whose anti-english sentiments are board wrong and often crossing the line towards racism.

You may think I have strange ideas. ..Well consider how individual perception based on personal experience may actually be more close to the truth than your own experience may be. Try to be open minded. I try to be, u find it the best way to be with people?

What I have experienced is not necessarily what you have experienced. I have no problem accepting that. Have you?

I watched a Plaid Cymru adress on S4C this weekend. It was largely delivered in the welsh language which I am fortunate enough to have a grasp of. Like all political parties that seek to gain control they appear to be the cats pyjamas. Nationalised rail network etc. Well because of my age I have experience free prescriptions higher education etc. I don't see such things as policies that champion non right wing policies. I see these things as the way they should be?

Why would I celebrate something that is not a move forward? It is simply what the populace should accept from any government! Do you still think my ideas are strange?

I have tried to engage with the SNP about issues myself and my family have experienced in Scotland and we have had the door slammed firmly in out face. Let me tell you that the response to the issues I raised was very very right wing.

Having read Orwells "Lion and the unicorn and other essays", I am prepared to accept that it is possible to be nationalistic and still be socialist without flying a nazi flag. However I caution you to consider that any nationalist politics is always exercised in tandem with a high degree if right wing influence. History tells its own stories. With the SNP and it's stir tiring skirl of the pied pipping brave heart esque romance gathering crap there will always be those that miss the truth because it's easier to believe the conditioning of "Scotland the Brave". Almost every Scotland is a stick of tartan rock with national pride written right through it. Should this necessarily negate the need to acknowledge wrongs in our society?

Being right wing isn't about what you say you do or are going to do. It is simply what you are. You get that don't you?

Mussolini made the trains run on time, Hitter created the autobahn. Alex Salmond provided free prescriptions etc. So what? (We had them and expect them in our national conscious ness any way, reinstatement of policy does not reveal overriding ideology)

Salmond is overtly anti English in my opinion. He is also very officious and unapproachable. I sense a didacticness that feels almost dictatorial. He does not care about the disabled and or the marginalised of Scottish society. He has no interest in the racism issue that runs through Scottish society. He is a box ticker. Ie. if it looks alright, it is alright. But the way things appear through the SNP beer goggles are not as they actually are.

If the SNP are not right wing why have they not investigated the privatisation of social housing in the area of Scotland where I live that was initiated under a pseudo liberal local administration? The corruption and criminality we have experienced here has been covered up and concealed. It remains I investigated and involves the misappropriation of millions in public funds.

Why also won't they question why we have to pay both council tax at an extortionate rate as well as a factoring charge that covers services already paid for in our council tax.

Why won't they investigate accusations of racism and nepotism?

"Is it cos I is black?" To quote Ali G?

Why won't they accept that the Scottish police system is riddled with corruption and that the judiciary is also very very questionable. It's fundamental human rights issues such as these that the SNP have failed to eggar in with me that suggests to me that they are a bunch of Twonks. To be fair to Nicola Sturgeon, I feel she has tried to help us but she is somewhat constrained. Her legal background clearly puts her in a position where she knows what's happening on the streets. I think Nicola sturgeon is okay, but I'm afraid like other individuals who are also "Okay" in Holyrood and beyond they are often as individuals powerless to influence the "juggernaught" of overall government corruption that exists in our corporate and banking class led society.
 
Can you give some examples of right wing responses from SNP/PC types? And also of Salmond's overt anti-Englishness? I'm interested
 
Can you give some examples of right wing responses from SNP/PC types? And also of Salmond's overt anti-Englishness? I'm interested

I am telling you that I have specific reasons that substantiate my claim that the current Scottish infrastructure that is headed by Alex Salmond, Whom I have both formally and personally aproached he is Racist. This is my experience. If you don't like it then I suggest you reassess your perception of what other people think of Alex Salmond?

Im sure that there are plenty of others like me who will say the same thing. I could elaborate and expand into more detail but frankly I'm not sure who I'm speaking to? I'm open about my opinions but I know society isn't a place for free speech these days so please excuse my cautiousness.

I spoke to a Solicitor advocate from Glasgow last year. He was of the opinion that Scottish society is seeing a lot of injustice taking place where complainants like myself are increasingly being short changed by the establishment.

Truth it seems, is a commodity and is subject to the laws of supply and demand! There is little cause or need for truth when the juices of nationalist sentiments are riding high on a wave of frothy blinkeredness.

As for quoting any newspaper these days, particularly in relation to financial issues.... Ahem.

We all have to find the truth.

I find my truth in what I witness and what I experience. In what I read I only see truth If I can relate it to what I know or what I am learning. The key to our futures is most often best sought for in our past.

Please don't be so dismissive of me. I came to a forum like this to get an open minded discussion. Instead I sense denial. Or is it simply a case of well it hasn't happened to me so I'm alright jack?

Or should I be overtly suspicious and propose that there may be people here that don't care if Scotland is Racist to its citizens? Or indeed the citizens of other nations?

It happens, don't lie to yourselves as well as others. The police are terrible for it. Alex Salmond and office has treated me and others dreadfully.

Some of his senior civil servants, like some of you guys also deny the existence of racism in Scotland. Is Scotland perfect? Do you think Alex Salmond is perfect? Of course not, on both counts. So why oh why be so dismissive of my accusations?
 
Gordino , you've come in here like a bull in a china shop. You would be wise to listen to danny la rouge. He is well-read on the subject and his command of the material is impressive and I'm learning a lot from him (even if it seems that I'm not). Lurk and listen, then start posting.

I'll just address two points: firstly, there is anti-English racism and it isn't acknowledged by the SNP. Part of that is political hype, but it's been around for a long time, and we don't have to look that far back to see what happens when racism gets out of control. Secondly, with regards to truth, in politics, truth can often be a matter of perspective, and political philosophies can be as bad as religions.
 
I am telling you that I have specific reasons that substantiate my claim...
If you're going to post up specific allegations and accusations, you're going to have to back them up with something more substantial than "this is what I believe" otherwise you will be opening this board up to defamation claims.

Kindly back them up with evidence or edit your comments now please.
 
Some of his senior civil servants, like some of you guys also deny the existence of racism in Scotland.
Gordino, if you have found senior civil servants in the Scottish Government saying that there is no racism in Scotland, then those people are idiots. Not least because the Scottish Government's own campaign says there is: http://www.scotlandagainstracism.com/onescotland/8.1.2.html

Scotland prides itself on being a friendly country, welcoming of strangers. In reality however, alongside this culture of hospitality, there has also existed a long history of racism in Scotland.

More importantly, I'd be interested to know who you meant by "some of you guys" when you say "some of you guys also deny the existence of racism in Scotland"? I don't think I've noticed anyone on these boards denying the existence of racism in Scotland.
 
Gordino , you've come in here like a bull in a china shop. You would be wise to listen to danny la rouge. He is well-read on the subject and his command of the material is impressive and I'm learning a lot from him (even if it seems that I'm not). Lurk and listen, then start posting.

I'll just address two points: firstly, there is anti-English racism and it isn't acknowledged by the SNP. Part of that is political hype, but it's been around for a long time, and we don't have to look that far back to see what happens when racism gets out of control. Secondly, with regards to truth, in politics, truth can often be a matter of perspective, and political philosophies can be as bad as religions.


You seem like a reasonable man quartz. My truth has a hell of a lot to do with "facts". Not politics. I'm here to protect myself , wife and child. Not to play political games.

Pass judgement on me only when you've walked in my shoes. When you've been on the receiving end of some pretty bad shit it kind of either does for you, or it brings out the musk ox in a man.

I am not here as a bull. So if your all a bit "china shoppy" about stuff then fear not. I am here as a desperate man expressing my displeasure on a forum that is for those who are "keeping it real" unless the site reviews are mistaken that is?

I'm not here to curry favour or to play political games. Only to express what "truths" I am aware of. I'm not afraid of being controversial either. I sense that you are giving me friendly advice?

Why would I need that friendly advice?

Have I done something wrong. I've said nothing to anybody on here that is out of turn I am sure of that!

Is there something I should fear? I'm happy to stand alone. In this way I feel I'm setting an example for those who also feel alone and address to speak out.

I tried to get in touch with that old chap who lifted the stone of scoone some time ago, he seems like a great guy. I felt that a rational intellectual with as much gravitas as he has might have come to my aid. After failing to make contact with him he released a statement about Scotland needing troublemakers.

I am happy to be a trouble maker if that is the case.

If what I am saying spoils the pro nationalist party then I'm sorry for that. I couldn't care less if there is Scottish independence or not. I don't think it'll make any difference.

They can't harm me any more than they already have so I no longer fear them. ;). It's good to still be able to speak freely, don't you think?

Although there was a threat about the police coming around one night and me being dragged out of my bed. I was warned to think about my son also. They are giving him a terrible time at the moment and he's only 8!

Thanks for the advice but when it comes to doing what's right, I think I'll speak out every time.
 
If you're going to post up specific allegations and accusations, you're going to have to back them up with something more substantial than "this is what I believe" otherwise you will be opening this board up to defamation claims.

Kindly back them up with evidence or edit your comments now please.

I'm sorry if my inevitable has endangered the freedom of speech on this board.

As far as the government coming down on you or any individuals. I wouldn't worry about that.

They don't want to give me any publicity I can assure you!

I have been physically assaulted by a pseudo public official and I was charged with a breach of the peace.

I defended myself in court.

If I need to account for myself and any statements I make. I am more than happy to do so.

By the way as the editor are you that chap from Brixton who supports Cardiff City? Or are you somebody a bit more concerned with Scottish independence?
 
See
Gordino, if you have found senior civil servants in the Scottish Government saying that there is no racism in Scotland, then those people are idiots. Not least because the Scottish Government's own campaign says there is: http://www.scotlandagainstracism.com/onescotland/8.1.2.html



More importantly, I'd be interested to know who you meant by "some of you guys" when you say "some of you guys also deny the existence of racism in Scotland"? I don't think I've noticed anyone on these boards denying the existence of racism in Scotland.


See that Scotland against racism website. What a load of crap that is eh?

I contacted them several times and they never even tried to engage with me.

I think they were eventually going to but something I said to a senior civil servant stopped them from engaging with me.

What are they frightened of?

Truth perhaps.

I believe in brotherly love relief and truth.

I'm not sure that's true of everybody in Scotland. Even those that profess to believe in such things.


Bah! Scotland is embarrassing to me. The cover up capital of the world. The worlds biggest village.
 
Anti-Englishness is not racism. The English are not a separate race to us. Indeed many of us have English relatives. What it is is discrimination.
 
Anti-Englishness is not racism. The English are not a separate race to us. Indeed many of us have English relatives. What it is is discrimination.

I'm pretty sure if you check the legal definitions of racism that you may find you are mistaken weepiper? I'm not taking issue with you, it's just I've looked into this a bit as you might expect?

I'm not going to talk about the specifics of what has happened to us. All I'm going to say is that we have been subject to treatment that can only be explained as racism.

It has been reported. Not to the police, because I fear the police are a pathetic excuse for a joke. I reported it to Alex Salmonds office.

One of his staff agreed that what we had experienced was dreadful. Although she was soon no longer in post.

I don't have to say any more than that and if you choose not to accept it then that's no sweat off my nose.

It's all about priorities in politics. Crisis management. If you can't pay them off. Defame them or Destroy them.

Well they've all but tried to destroy me.
 
You say you don't care about indyref and won't be voting so why are you posting all this here Gordino ? What are you hoping to achieve?


It's just nice to be able to say what needs to be said.

I care about people you see Frankie Jack? That's why I got into care and teaching etc. do you know what I mean?

I represent a proportion of the Scottish people who have been treated badly by this administration and I think it's important that everybody understands who they are voting for?

I appreciate that the referendum is about independence. It would however be foolish to disentangle the SNP from this wouldn't it. They themselves wouldn't wish to be disassociated from the referendum being the main voice for separation from the union?

I feel it's only fair as a consequence that people acknowledge the darker side of Salmonds Administration.

Anyone who cares about Scotland wouldn't want people who allow terrible injustices to occur to individuals and their families to become national Herod without accounting for there very obviously covered up short comings?

I also hope that by speaking out I might give courage to others who may be afeared about speaking out.

Why not speak out? This is a forum about Scottish issues is it not? I have also given a context as to the relationship of the post to the board?

Is this okay?
 
I'm sorry if my inevitable has endangered the freedom of speech on this board.

As far as the government coming down on you or any individuals. I wouldn't worry about that.
Thanks for your advice, but the rules of this board are clear. If you are unable to substantiate defamatory allegations then you must remove them or they will be removed for you. This is to ensure that the boards stay open for all.
By the way as the editor are you that chap from Brixton who supports Cardiff City? Or are you somebody a bit more concerned with Scottish independence?
Not entirely sure why you're linking those two statements together or what it has to do with the discussion.
 
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