Will you vote for independence?

[danny la rouge]

He'll be forced into giving more in the coming weeks...just wait till Osbourne pipes up!

Interesting graphic here, someone has done the sums over how elections would have turned out without the Scottish element of the vote - it would make little difference to the outcomes past

more details: http://wingsoverscotland.com/why-labour-doesnt-need-scotland/

which suggests the fears over a perpetual Tory government in England post-succession are unfounded

Don't let Free Spirit hear you saying that!

(There would have been *some* differences, for example the current coalition would be a Tory majority. Not that the Lib-dems being missing would make any real difference to your experience).

 

[Quartz]

Surely 1974 would be pivotal? Heath would have won outright and had no need for the autumn election. Without Heath losing Thatcher would probably not have become PM in 1979, and much else besides.

 

[geminisnake]

http://petewishart.wordpress.com/2014/02/06/the-speech-they-tried-to-shout-down/

Typical HoC behaviour, jeer and shout at anything you don't like. Honourable members?? Bunch of bloody spoilt brats more like.

 

[ska invita]

Surely 1974 would be pivotal? Heath would have won outright and had no need for the autumn election. Without Heath losing Thatcher would probably not have become PM in 1979, and much else besides.

There's a more thorough breakdown in the link - but the idea that gets put around that we'd have infinite Tory governments seems flat out wrong

1974 Minority Labour govt (Wilson)
————————————————
Labour majority: -33
Without Scottish MPs: -50
POSSIBLE CHANGE – LABOUR MINORITY TO CONSERVATIVE MINORITY
(Without Scots: Con 276, Lab 261, Lib 11, Others 16)


1974b Labour govt (Wilson/Callaghan)
—————————————————–
Labour majority: 3
Without Scottish MPs: -8
CHANGE: LABOUR MAJORITY TO LABOUR MINORITY
(Lab 278 Con 261 Lib 10 others 15)

 

[danny la rouge]

Fedayn are you going to this?

Why Trade Unionists and Civil Servants Should Support Independence

PCS public meeting on why trade unionists should vote Yes, STUC in Glasgow: https://www.facebook.com/events/256863354480103/?source=1

"All PCS members and activists are encouraged to attend. Members of other unions are welcome as are undecided and No voters".

 

[Sue]

It's interesting that he is quite happy to give his views on what Scottish voters should do, but he doesn't think he should debate the issue with Salmond because "I don't have a vote in Scotland". (That was the reason given). So you can lecture us on what we should do, but you don't want to engage in a debate because you don't have a vote?

Personally, I think people in the rest of the UK can and should express an opinion. It affects them, so I'd like to hear them. I also think that the person who is the head of the government of the UK has the obligation to represent the Unionist view in debate.

It reminds me of the Guardian getting their readers to contact people in the States and implore them to vote Democrat a few years ago -- unsurprisingly, it persuaded more people to vote Republican than Democrat.

I've lived in the south of England for nigh on 20 years and am constantly surprised by the lack of knowledge/interest most people have in Scotland. At the moment, I get asked three or four times a week how I'm going to vote and it's always met with surprise when I say I can't and with even greater surprise when I say anyone on the electoral register in Scotland can ('What even the English?!!!')

In the main, people know nothing about our separate legal/education systems, have no idea the SNP are running the Scottish government and often have the impression that most people in Scotland are on the dole and the country is a massive drain on the UK as a whole because we're all evil benefit scroungers.

So while I agree people in the rest of the UK should express their opinions, on a selfish level I'm just imagining how much worse this'll get over the next six months...

 

[DotCommunist]

you forgot the deep fried marsbars. Every peson in england has heard of them.




basically the reason a yes vote should go forward is because the other alternative is having wankers like Lord Moncton chatting shit forever and nobody needs that. Scotland doesn't need it, gaia herself does not need it.

 

[weepiper]

with even greater surprise when I say anyone on the electoral register in Scotland can ('What even the English?!!!')

Yes, and the Spanish and the Polish and *gasp* the Bangladeshis and Pakistanis too, because they live here like the rest of us that will have to put up with the decision. We're good like that.

 

[Sue]

Yes, and the Spanish and the Polish and *gasp* the Bangladeshis and Pakistanis too, because they live here like the rest of us that will have to put up with the decision. We're good like that.

Heard someone from the DUP on the radio a while ago creating because the 'Ulster Scots' can't vote in it. Made me and at the same time.

 

[geminisnake]

The DUP should go for a long walk off a short fecking pier!! If England is so great go and live there you twats.

 

[gosub]

Northern Ireland is the mad aunt of the British Isles unwanted by either country. I can't see anyone outside Glasgow giving a fuck about what Ulster thinks

 

[danny la rouge]

Forget the postcard Dave, it's time to pay us a visit

Ian Bell in the Herald:

We weren't taken aback to notice that you didn't go into details about social security, bedroom taxes and the like. You didn't find time to explain why your Chancellor's austerity programme rolls ever onwards when things are going so swimmingly: that was understandable, even predictable. But, no offence, your enthralling vision didn't include the answer to a question that has bothered a lot of us: what happens when the society you mean to create is not one we would consent to inhabit?

We get the news up here. We can see what you intend for the welfare state. We've a pretty good grasp now of how you regard the NHS, education, or the rights of working people. A lot of us don't find it congenial. When we see how things are going, many of us don't believe that the partial protections of devolution are enough.

 

[danny la rouge]

Guardian:

Scottish independence: opponents are like rabbits in SNP's headlights
With seven months to go, the momentum is with the Yes campaign

With barely seven months until Scotland decides its future, the No campaign is now being forced to dance to Alex Salmond's tune. These are desperate days for those entrusted with the task of ensuring that we are not living in the last days of the union.

Guardian

 

[danny la rouge]

Scotland On Sunday Leader:

http://www.scotsman.com/news/leaders-scottish-labour-drugs-policy-1-3299524

"Here in Scotland, in 2014, the Scottish Labour party risks writing a suicide note all of its own"

"The most eye-catching proposal [of the Devolution Commission set up by Scottish Labour leader Johann Lamont] was the devolution of responsibility for income tax from Westminster to Holyrood as part of a raft of powers to strengthen the Scottish Parliament, making it both more capable of influencing the Scottish economy and more accountable for the public money it spends. All the signs now, according to sources close to the process, are that Scottish Labour is set to backtrack on this proposal, and that it will be missing from the final report that goes before the party’s conference in Perth next month.

If this is indeed the case, the Devolution Commission report will be a disaster for the same three reasons as the 1983 manifesto was a disaster. First, it will be wilfully out of tune with public opinion, ignoring the demand for more powers for Holyrood that has been plain in every Scottish opinion poll for a decade, as well as the growing cultural confidence about self-government that saw Alex Salmond win a historic majority in 2011. Second, it will have been written by politicians who, in their reluctance to surrender ground to the nationalists, would rather cling to the status quo and lose, than develop their own home rule beliefs for new circumstances and win. And third, it will be the product of a growing civil war in the party between devo-sceptics and devo-enthusiasts that is about to burst into the open.

There is little Scottish Labour can do about this third factor. But there is still time – if it wishes – to avoid the first two. Those making these decisions should have no doubt about the risk Scottish Labour will be taking if its offering on more powers is a damp squib. Is Scottish Labour – the party of home rule from Keir Hardie’s day through to Donald Dewar – really willing to be outbid by the Scottish Conservatives on devolution? The Tory position is not yet known, but there is a golden opportunity here for its leader Ruth Davidson to demonstrate that she has made a break with the Thatcherite party of old. It would be a historic development, and an ignominious one for Labour.

That is before one assesses the electoral risk. This newspaper’s ICM poll a fortnight ago showed that if voters thought a No vote would not lead to more powers for Holyrood, the swing required for a Yes victory fell to just 3 per cent."

 

[gosub]

That aside, I’m glad Sillars has made his intervention because he’s right about something fundamental. Independence is not the same as the SNP leadership’s plans for Scotland post Yes. I agree with him that the Sterling thing was an own goal. I think an independent Scotland should have its own currency. I also think it should leave the EU.

Got a Yes newspaper dropped through the door this morning (still nothing from the No camp) its all built round the SNP white paper unfortunately. I take your point about it all being different post Yes - think Scottish Labour would reverse ferret quite quickly having shed those too reliant on the Westminster buck and SNP would fracture NATO membership that type of thing, a brave new world.

The Yes newspaper makes a big thing about child care provision (from the white paper), which is a good idea and a vote winner among mates with kids I know. Odd one cos that's doable now without independence. Might get lost in the brave new world (probably not don't know anyone who thinks its a bad move). If NO wins though, SNP doesn't fracture and probably holds the executive next election.... They are campaigning on a policy they would be better placed to deliver if they don't win (iyswim). But at least they are campaigning.

 

[danny la rouge]

Independence is a class issue:

A new poll carried out on behalf of the Scottish Sunday Times and Real Radio has revealed that more working class Scots would be backing Yes than supporting No: 53% Yes to 47% No.

Edit to fix link: LINK

 

[8ball]

Did anyone watch Cameron's speech there? Doing an amazing job for the Yes Campaign

Oh yeah - my mate Disco Dave has asked me to ask you whether you could all vote 'no' to the independence thing since if you go it will make him feel really sad.

Thanks awfully.

 

[butchersapron]

Sunday Times have No +4% today. 43/57

Independence is a class issue:

A new poll carried out on behalf of the Scottish Sunday Times and Real Radio has revealed that more working class Scots would be backing Yes than supporting No: 53% Yes to 47% No.

Link

"More so called working class" danny!

(Your link not working for me btw)

 

[danny la rouge]

Sunday Times have No +4% today. 43/57

"More so called working class" danny!

(Your link not working for me btw)

Yes, I refuse to use that phraseology. (I'll fix the link, though).

 

[danny la rouge]

Better Together says if Yes wins, "Scottish Passports would be rubbish. Nowhere near as good as British ones. They might not even be burgundy".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-25715397

 

[geminisnake]

Jings, crivvens and help ma boab!! My passport might not be burgundy, woe is me. FFS!!!

 

[danny la rouge]

Morning Star:

"Momentum is now with the Yes campaign"
http://morningstaronline.co.uk/a-680c-Momentum-is-now-with-the-Yes-campaign


SSP leader COLIN FOX argues that Scotland’s working class is backing independence

Working-class Scots are now twice as likely to vote Yes compared with those with a material interest in maintaining the status quo.

So what are the perceived advantages of independence for working-class Scots?

The list is a long one.

There would be no measures like the hated bedroom tax here after independence, no privatisation of Royal Mail, no more poll tax experimentation, no more blaming immigrants and claimants for an economic crisis caused by City bankers, no more Trident nuclear missiles stationed on the Clyde, no more Scottish soldiers sent to die in Iraq or Afghanistan and above all no more hated Tory governments. Scotland would, according to the latest OECD report, be the eighth-richest country in the world.

That’s an attractive list by anyone’s reckoning, let alone compared to the continuing deterioration in our living standards, the widening inequalities and the xenophobic, anti-claimant policies emanating from Westminster or the ongoing attacks on our political rights promised by the union.

 

[DotCommunist]

Jings, crivvens and help ma boab!! My passport might not be burgundy, woe is me. FFS!!!

maybe it'll be like at the bank where they offer you a card with penguins or sunflowers on it for no reason.

 

[geminisnake]

Quite like the idea of a sunflower covered passport

 

[danny la rouge]

maybe it'll be like at the bank where they offer you a card with penguins or sunflowers on it for no reason.

Cool. I'll have gorillas. Gorillas are great.

 

[danny la rouge]

 

[JTG]

As a passport that looks rubbish tbf

 

[danny la rouge]

As a passport that looks rubbish tbf

Your fat balls are rubbish.

 

[JTG]

 

[danny la rouge]

Osborne 'to rule out currency union'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26147783

(Journalist and broadcaster) Iain Macwhirter told BBC Good Morning Scotland that this was a signal that the UK Government's new strategy amounts to "vote No or we'll wreck your economy".

Personally, I thought the SNP had given a hostage to fortune with the monetary union thing. However, there is a possibility that this may not play how the Tories want it to. It might just be that people react by saying "Oh, you're telling us what we can't do, are you? I'll vote Yes just to show you".