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Will you vote for independence?

Scottish independence?

  • Yes please

    Votes: 99 56.6%
  • No thanks

    Votes: 57 32.6%
  • Dont know yet

    Votes: 17 9.7%

  • Total voters
    175
Here's a weird one:

Would you be in favour or against independence if no difference to standard of living?

Question asked: "Say that it was clear that if Scotland became an independent country, separate from the rest of the UK, it would make little difference to the standard of living, and on average people would be no better or worse off. In those circumstances, would you be in favour or against Scotland becoming an independent country? "

1497 respondents, 18 and older.

Strongly in favour 10%
In favour 24%
Neither in favour nor against 24%
Against 29%
Strongly against 11%
Don't know 2%


ETA. Just noticed it's a year old.
 
George Galloway, No campaigner, hedges his bets: he would "fancy being prime minister of Scotland" if it votes for independence on September 18.

"Respect MP George Galloway has said he would like to become prime minister of an independent Scotland if his bid to convince Scots to vote "Naw" in the referendum fails".
What's GG's basis for no? Is the usual labour one or has he some different angle?

edit: don't worry, just read the piece - it's does appear to be the bog standard one.
 
George Galloway, No campaigner, hedges his bets: he would "fancy being prime minister of Scotland" if it votes for independence on September 18.

"Respect MP George Galloway has said he would like to become prime minister of an independent Scotland if his bid to convince Scots to vote "Naw" in the referendum fails".

Is anyone likely to be swayed one way or the other?

The only people I can imagine caring are those who want independence but are put off by the idea that they might somehow get saddled with George Galloway as PM.
 
Bookies are shortening the odds on a Yes vote. Paddy Power is now offering 3/1 for Yes and 1/5 for a No.

In February last year William Hill was offering 6/1 Yes and 1/12 No.

Comparing two different books doesn't tell us anything. William hill are currently offering 11/2 yes, 1\10 no. That's about a one percent change in the implied probabilities since last year. Not really a shortening of any note.


Edit: even a move from 6/1 to 3/1 only represents a change in the implied probability of about ten percent.
 
He stated last week on his FB account that he wasn't going to get involved in the debate after a Labourite troll against Indyref stuck her usual rubbish two cents in.
 
who is this Owen Jones person?? I haven't heard of any of the 'famous' people that crop up on here. I only just found out today that Laurie whoever is female!!
 
who is this Owen Jones person?? I haven't heard of any of the 'famous' people that crop up on here. I only just found out today that Laurie whoever is female!!


young english high profile lefty- gets invited onto tv debates to be the token voice of the left. Fond of blu check shirts and the chuffed/gutted dialectic. Seems apleasant enough bloke but a labourite who thinks the party can be saved. Wrote 'Chavs: The Demonization of the Working Class' which is better read than most people give it credit for.


also can you imagine Galloway becoming Supreme Leader of Scotland? he'd do a victory lap of the entire british mainland riding on a trident sub and smoking a giant cigar.
 
Sillars, ex Labour, maybe just trying to get the red monkeys to vote aye? :hmm:
Here's my review:

By choosing the title In Place of Fear II, Sillars is deliberately positioning himself on the Bevanite left, which will come as no surprise to anyone familiar with Sillars’ history. In the book he specifically says that his programme is designed to be to the left of anything the Labour Party has done in government. He says this to place distance between himself and those former Bevanites who later led Labour Governments.

As a personal statement it may make sense, but as a public statement it’s puzzling as to why Sillars has chosen this language. I doubt that many people still read In Place of Fear, and yet many of the terms Sillars uses depend upon the reader being familiar with the 1952 original.

Sillars writes that his intention is to “replace the weakness and latent insecurity of labour by controlling capital in the interests of the general community” (p21). To that end, he proposes a mixed economy with nationalisation where strategically necessary (for example, in the unlikely event that whisky manufacturers were to walk away), or where necessary as a tool for redistribution, but resurrects Bevan’s notion of state control of the “commanding heights” of the economy rather than a full-scale policy of nationalisation. He acknowledges that the economy today differs from that of Bevan’s day, but suggests that there are still “important heights” to be conquered in the “workers’ interests”. In a Bevanite turn of phrase, he says “[...] audacity in the face of orthodoxy can make a difference in the power equation between capital and labour.”(p23).

As an example of this control of the commanding heights, arguing that the oil take needs to be greater than what comes from taxes alone, Sillars proposes a Scottish National Oil Corporation, with the right to a stake of 10% in the production and profit from each company operating under licences “up to and including the 27th Round. Thereafter, in any future Round, the stake will be 25%”. (p58).

He says that the “idea that when challenged via taxation or regulatory policies or laws to protect workers, all global companies will up stakes and depart for elsewhere, is infantile.” (pp18/19).

Sillars’ language is rooted in the era of Bevan. He doesn’t talk about neoliberalism, but refers always to capitalism. He writes: “When workers withdraw their labour, there is a great stramash with warnings of the economic cost to the national GDP. A ‘strike’ of capital is hardly remarked upon”. (p20). For Sillars, the lesson of the October 2013 INEOS ‘closure’ at Grangemouth is that “the socialist ethic of public good above all must again be embraced”.

His goal is to analyse where power lies, and how in an independent Scotland workers can take power into their own hands. In this, like Bevin, he aims to be “realistic” and to make sure that his proposals are “achievable”. The answers he comes to are not always the ones I’d come to. But his stanch condemnation of global capitalism is refreshing to read. He remains that rare bread, a conviction politician. Time and again he refers to the moral purpose of socialism, and to the principles of redistribution of both wealth and control.

As well as the Bevanite programme, Sillars believes that Salmond’s policy of a Sterling Zone currency union is an own goal. He points out that businesses in Scotland will trade via Sterling if they want to, currency union or not. He argues for Scottish membership of EFTA rather than the EU (he has revised his “Independence in Europe” view, which he says fitted conditions in the 80s but not now). He argues for renationalisation of the railways, endorsing Kevin Lindsay’s Red Paper on Scotland 2014: “simply wait until the TOC franchise runs out, and take it into public ownership at no cost” (p80).

He does not, however, argue for all public utilities to be taken back into public control, not, it seems, because he is averse to the principle, but because “these companies obtained their positions legitimately in law” and that there is no “prospect on cost grounds alone for wholesale nationalisation”. Instead there will be “commanding heights” stakes of 15% in electricity and gas companies and a new Act to change company law.

This is a taste of the measures Sillars suggests. I won’t enumerate them all here.

This little book is a manifesto, but it is a manifesto with a difference: there is no party proposing it as a programme. It differs a great deal from the SNP white paper, although Sillars remains an SNP member. And yet here is the intriguing part: the book mentions Sillars’ old SLP several times, and he thanks former SLP comrades, although not his old SLP side-kick, Alex Neil, now very much part of the Salmond project. Sillars specifically says that a Yes vote is not necessarily an endorsement of the SNP, and a vote for “change but no change”.

Sillars is putting forward an old school democratic socialist programme, the type of programme that many once looked to the Labour Party to implement (and which, as Sillars points out, they always failed in power to achieve). But who is he hoping will carry it into being? I think he is staking out the ground for a split in the SNP post “Yes”. His mention of old SLP comrades is telling: he is saying to the socialists of the SNP: “ditch the Salmond project once a Yes vote has been delivered. Here is a direction we can take instead”.
 
Why don't you trust him, geminisnake and Frankie Jack ?

I can see plenty of places to disagree with him, and although always a very able politician and public speaker, he always lacked the strategic and tactical nous of Salmond. But what is more untrustworthy about him than any other politician?
 
Why don't you trust him, geminisnake and Frankie Jack ?

But what is more untrustworthy about him than any other politician?


Did I say I trusted any politician? :D Tbh I'm not 100% sure why I don't trust him. His world seems to me to revolve around him and I don't like that in ANY person. I used to read some of his stuff in the press, when I still read MSM and some of it just rang false. Too fond of the sound of his own voice as well imo. Sorry can't explain it any better because occasionally you just have a reaction to someone you can't explain.

I didn't like Nicola for a long time either but she's matured and grown on me.
 
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He is, to me, one of the old school that has changed his allegiance to wherever suits his politics at the time. Not saying that's a bad thing, but, I feel he's looking for something he didn't quite catch before and might get with Independence. It's a bit early to muddy the waters by trying to push some of his own personal politics rather than what is generally behind the Indy movement before the referendum.

I've always had more time for Margo than him. She always seemed to have conviction. He's looking for the, possibly last, shine of the spotlight.

Given the state of the Slab administration though I'd pay a wee heed to Jim before the Labour arse lickers like Lamont, Sarwar, Currie and Baillie in the Parli.
 
@ Frankie and Gem. Fair enough. Gem, I wondered if you were going to say that he was too Central Belt-y for your tastes. (Which, in a way is what Frankie is saying, too).

For me, he represents the kind of old-style parliamentary socialism that I joined the Labour Party because of, as a kid. He has very similar concerns to my Dad, and I still respect those people, especially because they have held fast to those principles, although there are almost none of them left in the Labour Party. I may have moved on politically (which Sillars kind of hasn’t: he’s just travelled through the parties looking for the best home for them), but emotionally I’d like a viable vehicle for those principles to exist.

That aside, I’m glad Sillars has made his intervention because he’s right about something fundamental. Independence is not the same as the SNP leadership’s plans for Scotland post Yes. I agree with him that the Sterling thing was an own goal. I think an independent Scotland should have its own currency. I also think it should leave the EU.

Voting Yes is an answer to the question: "Should Scotland be an independent country?" That is all. It is not an endorsement of the SNP’s plans for governing that independent country. The referendum does not ask anything about the currency, for example. Just as voting No does not ask whether you want the UK to retain Sterling, join the Euro, try out something like the ERM again, and so on. Yes or No is all. The media forgets that and thinks that independence = the white paper. It does not. So if people like Sillars, the Greens, the SSP, the Radical Indy folks, and so on can get some column inches on their visions post Yes, then so much the better.
 
It's interesting that he is quite happy to give his views on what Scottish voters should do, but he doesn't think he should debate the issue with Salmond because "I don't have a vote in Scotland". (That was the reason given). So you can lecture us on what we should do, but you don't want to engage in a debate because you don't have a vote?

Personally, I think people in the rest of the UK can and should express an opinion. It affects them, so I'd like to hear them. I also think that the person who is the head of the government of the UK has the obligation to represent the Unionist view in debate.
 
Tbh I think Jim has had his day, we need new fresh people to take Scotland forward, not someone heading towards his pension. I made my mind up about him a long time ago and he's done nothing positive to change it.

I haven't read much of the white paper yet, I'm not good with facts and figures. I'm probably going to agree mostly with RIC in the forward vision for the country. I may be a cyber nat but I'm a socialist one :) (If labels have to be applied)
 
After that speech, Mr Salmon must be feeling confident - congratulations to Dave for managing to sustain a merry dance on such thin ice. :D

reposted from the other thread
 
Did anyone watch Cameron's speech there? Doing an amazing job for the Yes Campaign :facepalm:
He'll be forced into giving more in the coming weeks...just wait till Osbourne pipes up!

Interesting graphic here, someone has done the sums over how elections would have turned out without the Scottish element of the vote - it would make little difference to the outcomes past
samaritans1-460x325.jpg

more details: http://wingsoverscotland.com/why-labour-doesnt-need-scotland/

which suggests the fears over a perpetual Tory government in England post-succession are unfounded
 
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