Will you vote for independence?

[gosub]

WTF?

Yes, William Wallace is commemorated in monuments and statues. He has served as a figurehead for various notions of freedom throughout the centuries, including incidentally to both Unionist and (this may surprise you) English thinkers.

Yes, Bannockburn was the deciding battle in the conflict I outlined above. It is significant in Scottish history.

You seem to have found not only the wrong end of a stick, but a different stick.

A statue near the Wallace monument :

 

[butchersapron]

I like his uggs.

 

[danny la rouge]

A statue near the Wallace monument :

You're out of date. That statue - a source of embarrassment locally - has gone. It was originally donated by the sculptor (a guy from Brechin if I remember correctly - maybe Geminisnake knows him), but Stirling District Tourism (who run the Wallace Monument) didn't know what it looked like when they agreed to take it. After the usual to-ing and fro-ing of committees and angst about whether returning a gift was good form, they decided to return it to the sculptor. I understand he was miffed, but displays it near his home.

(I live very near the Wallace Monument).

 

[danny la rouge]

Johnny, just remembered JD Mackie's A History of Scotland. That's a small and concise Pelican publication, originally published in the 60s, I think. Prof Mackie was a historian at St Andrews Uni, and his book was used in schools.

 

[gosub]

You're out of date. That statue - a source of embarrassment locally - has gone. It was originally donated by the sculptor (a guy from Brechin if I remember correctly - maybe Geminisnake knows him), but Stirling District Tourism (who run the Wallace Monument) didn't know what it looked like when they agreed to take it. After the usual to-ing and fro-ing of committees and angst about whether returning a gift was good form, they decided to return it to the sculptor. I understand he was miffed, but displays it near his home.

(I live very near the Wallace Monument).

Ah was there when I went up the hill. My understanding was bloke had donated it and he wasn't well. Thought they would at least wait for him to croak before getting rid

 

[danny la rouge]

Ah was there when I went up the hill. My understanding was bloke had donated it and he wasn't well. Thought they would at least wait for him to croak before getting rid

Yes there was a balance of embarrassments: is it worse to diss a sick guy or have this tacky rock on display? When showed no sign of dying yet, they finally bit the bullet.

This must have been 5 years ago at least. I haven't heard if he's still alive.

 

[danny la rouge]

OK, JohnnyCanuck Here's a list to go with the general histories already mentioned.

Keep in mind the fact that there's no such thing as history without an axe to grind, and if there was it would make a dull read. So some of these are problematic (eg Prebble). But you should read them anyway.

Wars of Independence

Scotland, the Making of the Kingdom volume 1, A.A.M. Duncan

Robert Bruce and the community of the Realm of Scotland, GWS Barrow

Jacobite Rising

Culloden, John Prebble

Clearances, the Crofters War, Land-raids etc.

Mightier Than A Lord, Iain Fraser Grigor

The Poor Had No Lawyers, Andy Wightman

The Making of the Crofting Community, James Hunter

Clanship to Crofter's War: The Social Transformation of the Scottish Highlands, Tom Devine

The Scottish insurrection of 1820, Seamus Mac a'Ghobhainn, and Peter Berresford Ellis

The Highland Clearances, John Prebble

Industrial Revolution and the Working Class

The Rousing of the Scottish working class, JD Young

Scottish Radicalism

The Very Bastards of Creation, JD Young

 

[danny la rouge]

Forgot:

20th Century

No Gods and Precious Few Heroes, Christopher Harvie

Social History

Scottish Voices 1745-1960, TC Smout and Sydney Wood.

That'll keep you going.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

OK, well a current authority on the Wars of Independence (Wallace, Bruce, Bannockburn) is my friend Dr Fiona Watson. I can't say she hasn't got an axe to grind, though, as she is a Unionist.

If you want a all-in-one Scottish history book, "Scotland: a new history" by Michael Lynch might fit the bill. It's necessarily short on detail in many areas, though. The old favourites are TC Smout's various books, such as the classic "A History of the Scottish People 1560-1830". He isn't without his problems, though, and has been criticised for a "Caledonian cringe" (a sense that Scotland is an inferior place with much to be embarrassed about in its arts and music and so on).

"The Scottish Nation: 1700-2007" by Tom Devine is a good option for Scotland going into the Union up to date.

I'll be back. Just got to do something in real life...

Thanks for the recommendations.

 

[danny la rouge]

Alex Salmond delighted as UK promises to pay Scotland's debts

[...] the Treasury pledged, in the event of a Scottish vote to leave the union, to honour all UK government debt issued up to the date of Scottish independence.

In order to reassure investors in Gilts ahead of the referendum on Scottish independence in September, and to avert the possibility of a damaging spike in market interest rates, the Treasury has promised to stand behind Britain's entire £1.3trn national debt.

Mr Salmond said the pledge had strengthened the bargaining hand of a future government north of the border.

"We remain prepared to negotiate taking responsibility for financing a fair share of the debts of the UK provided, of course, Scotland secures a fair share of the assets," the Scottish First Minister said, adding that the Treasury's announcement "makes clear that Scotland would be in an extremely strong negotiating position to secure that fair deal".

 

[Quartz]

Alex Salmond delighted as UK promises to pay Scotland's debts

What a gift to the SNP!

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Johnny, just remembered JD Mackie's A History of Scotland. That's a small and concise Pelican publication, originally published in the 60s, I think. Prof Mackie was a historian at St Andrews Uni, and his book was used in schools.

I bought one on the weekend. Can't recall the author, and the book is upstairs. I'll mention the author when I get book and computer in the same room.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

OK, JohnnyCanuck Here's a list to go with the general histories already mentioned.

Keep in mind the fact that there's no such thing as history without an axe to grind, and if there was it would make a dull read. So some of these are problematic (eg Prebble). But you should read them anyway.

Wars of Independence

Scotland, the Making of the Kingdom volume 1, A.A.M. Duncan

Robert Bruce and the community of the Realm of Scotland, GWS Barrow

Jacobite Rising

Culloden, John Prebble

Clearances, the Crofters War, Land-raids etc.

Mightier Than A Lord, Iain Fraser Grigor

The Poor Had No Lawyers, Andy Wightman

The Making of the Crofting Community, James Hunter

Clanship to Crofter's War: The Social Transformation of the Scottish Highlands, Tom Devine

The Scottish insurrection of 1820, Seamus Mac a'Ghobhainn, and Peter Berresford Ellis

The Highland Clearances, John Prebble

Industrial Revolution and the Working Class

The Rousing of the Scottish working class, JD Young

Scottish Radicalism

The Very Bastards of Creation, JD Young

Thanks. That's a lot of books.

I don't think I've read that many books on Canadian history.

 

[weepiper]

16-18 year olds (who will have the vote, when it comes) at Prestwick Academy swing from 33% to 51% 'Yes' after a debate featuring the chief exec Yes Scotland and the campaign director of Better Together

http://www.yesscotland.net/news/school-indyref-debate-produces-spectacular-swing-yes

 

[Belushi]

I'm in the perverse position of hoping for a No vote in the referendum, but would I think vote Yes if I lived in Scotland

 

[Fedayn]

A statue near the Wallace monument :

A statue of Mel Gibson, how nice.

 

[danny la rouge]

I'm in the perverse position of hoping for a No vote in the referendum, but would I think vote Yes if I lived in Scotland

Why do you want a No outcome if you don't live in Scotland but a Yes outcome if you did?

 

[butchersapron]

Very interesting evidence-based piece - and not good news for the YES camp:

Scotland’s Independence Referendum: Do We Already Know the Result?

 

[Belushi]

Why do you want a No outcome if you don't live in Scotland but a Yes outcome if you did?

Because I dont want to be stuck in a rump UK with the English ever more likely to do something daft like leave the EU; if I were a Scot I'd go for it, nothing ventured nothing gained.

 

[danny la rouge]

Very interesting evidence-based piece - and not good news for the YES camp:

Scotland’s Independence Referendum: Do We Already Know the Result?

Have to say I'm not surprised by the conclusion; I've never thought the 40:60 split was likely to change. However, the one glimmer of hope for the Yes cause is that Better Together needs to stay away from being negative about Scotland, which it has singularly failed to do, to the extent that even No voters are put off. However, they are also very low profile, so it could be that few people actually hear the negativity. Maybe that's the strategy...

 

[danny la rouge]

Because I dont want to be stuck in a rump UK with the English ever more likely to do something daft like leave the EU; if I were a Scot I'd go for it, nothing ventured nothing gained.

Is that daft?

That aside, I really don't recognise this picture of Scots as a steadying influence on the English.

 

[Belushi]

Is that daft?

It would if they left to follow some right wing fantasy about us becoming a new Singapore.

 

[danny la rouge]

It would if they left to follow some right wing fantasy about us becoming a new Singapore.

Yes, that would be daft.

But is it likely? I know UKIP get votes, and Question Time loves having them on. But really, UKIP only has 17% of the electorate behind them. That's a small minority.

Furthermore, there are only only 5.2 million people in Scotland, as opposed to 57 million in England (http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/england-population/). That's 9.2%. If England decided to vote UKIP (it won't, but if it did) and Scotland bucked that trend, there's nothing arithmetically we could do to stop you.


Saturday 4 January 2014:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jan/04/labour-lead-conservative-ukip-poll

 

[Belushi]

I'll come back to this when I have more time Danny but I wasnt talking so much about UKIP as the Conservatives; and think a dissolution of the Union (and I think NI and Wales would eventually follow Scotlands lead) would strengthen the right in England, and not just because of the demographics.

 

[danny la rouge]

I'll come back to this when I have more time Danny but I wasnt talking so much about UKIP as the Conservatives; and think a dissolution of the Union (and I think NI and Wales would eventually follow Scotlands lead) would strengthen the right in England, and not just because of the demographics.

OK, look forward to it.

 

[geminisnake]

 

[danny la rouge]

Scotland's Labour traditions are the real battleground for the yes vote

This week's Scottish Social Attitudes survey shows a strong correlation between support for independence and social class. Some 40% of households earning under £14,300 are likely to vote yes, while wealthy Scots are resolutely hostile, and 72% of business leaders are hostile to independence.

Contrary to the views of many Labour supporters and liberals, the referendum is not about blood and soil separatism. It reflects longstanding societal divisions about the British state's direction.

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...tland-labour-traditions-yes-vote-independence

 

[geminisnake]

Hubby seems to think this is an old survey, according to other sites.

 

[butchersapron]

Nah, it's part of a series published this month. Third one down here.

 

[Favelado]

A statue near the Wallace monument :

That's an awful statue. Doesn't he deserve better?