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Will you vote for independence?

Scottish independence?

  • Yes please

    Votes: 99 56.6%
  • No thanks

    Votes: 57 32.6%
  • Dont know yet

    Votes: 17 9.7%

  • Total voters
    175
Would it have to join Schengen? Britain hasn't so far? But yeah, agree " No way English politics would leave a porus border with Schengen area"
If ends up as joining as a new state. UK and Ireland doesn't as were members before Schengen and negotiated opt out,
 
I was speaking to some Unionist people last night. They were all worried about Better Together. They felt the campaign wasn't credible, and was focusing on the wrong issues. More interestingly, one was a journalist and he was saying that BT was really hard to get anything out of. He had the impression that it was basically riven with division, due to mistrust between Labour and Tories, which meant nobody was working with anyone else, and the organisation was just frozen into inaction. Which was, he said, ironic given the name. He had tried getting answers to questions for stories and they just weren't able to answer him.

This worried him, and led him to believe the referendum would be closer than you'd expect. I'm not sure that follows, but was a measure of how rattled he was.
 
I watched Braveheart again. Hollywood.

But... it goes back so far, doesn't it?

What goes back a long way?

I’m at a loss to understand what you think you’ve learned from a Mel Gibson film. If you’re interested in Scottish history pre-Union, there are far better places to look.

The conflict 700 years ago was between factions of the Norman French nobility. To understand what went on, you need to understand the Normans and how they operated.

When Alexander III of Scotland died, closely followed by his only direct heir, Margaret,” the Maid of Norway”, the vying nobles couldn’t decide upon a successor that would unite all the nobility, especially since she inherited through her mother; her father was Eric Magnusson, Eric II of Norway. And so they turned to the Norman King of England, Edward I, as a mediator.

Robert de Bruce, before he became King, was quite happy with this arrangement, and was indeed quite happy to swear fealty as a Norman noble to the English King. These were matters between Norman nobles. Those ties meant far more than any notions of nationhood. And so when Edward brokered a deal for John Balliol to take the throne of Scotland, de Bruce was fine with that. It was only later, when the power play proved not to be over, that de Bruce decided it was in his interests to press his own case. And press it he did, in time-honoured fashion, by murdering his rivals.

Does any of this have anything to do with whether those of us living in Scotland today will vote for an independent parliament? Nothing at all. Scotland in the late 13th / early 14th centuries was no more a democracy than anywhere else. The feudal system had many more centuries to run. We hadn’t even yet had the Stuart era of the “Divine Right of Kings”, which gave way to the accommodation between the merchantile class and the aristocracy, which was followed by the industrial revolution, which itself preceded universal suffrage.
 
What goes back a long way?.

You're right, though: I could certainly learn more history.

Looking up William Wallace:

Sir William Wallace, (born c. 1270, probably near Paisley, Renfrew, Scot.—died Aug. 23, 1305, London, Eng.), one of Scotland’s greatest national heroes, leader of the Scottish resistance forces during the first years of the long, and ultimately successful, struggle to free Scotland from English rule.

That's from the Brittanica website. Sounds like somebody thinks he's a hero - even after all this time.

Also: didn't Bannockburn happen sometime shortly after the events described in Braveheart: and doesn't that continue to hold some significance or meaning in Scotland?
 
You're right, though: I could certainly learn more history.

Looking up William Wallace:

That's from the Brittanica website. Sounds like somebody thinks he's a hero - even after all this time.

Also: didn't Bannockburn happen sometime shortly after the events described in Braveheart: and doesn't that continue to hold some significance or meaning in Scotland?

WTF?

Yes, William Wallace is commemorated in monuments and statues. He has served as a figurehead for various notions of freedom throughout the centuries, including incidentally to both Unionist and (this may surprise you) English thinkers.

Yes, Bannockburn was the deciding battle in the conflict I outlined above. It is significant in Scottish history.

You seem to have found not only the wrong end of a stick, but a different stick.
 
Upsetting, no. I'm mystified by the line you're taking, though.

What 'line'? After watching a movie, I made a suggestion that it appears that current events in Scotland are predicated upon centuries of conflict and ill feeling vis a vis England.

You, who know more about Scottish history than I do, have advised me that I'm wrong.
 
There are without doubt anti English bigots in Scotland. They are, I am glad to report, a minority. My English wife tells me that in 20 years of living here, she has never personally encountered any.

I have, though. And when you meet them, they tend to be more interested in Bonnie Prince Charlie and the Clearances than in Robert de Bruce. If you like, when I have more time, I can tell you how wrong they are on both counts.

There are, though, obvious points of interest for Canadian observers, and I'm happy to point you towards decent books that may be of use to you.
 
There are, though, obvious points of interest for Canadian observers, and I'm happy to point you towards decent books that may be of use to you.

My interest in history comes not so much from being a Canadian - than just, being interested in history. I'd be interested in the name of a good book about Scottish history that doesn't have an axe to grind one way or the other.
 
My interest in history comes not so much from being a Canadian - than just, being interested in history. I'd be interested in the name of a good book about Scottish history that doesn't have an axe to grind one way or the other.
OK, well a current authority on the Wars of Independence (Wallace, Bruce, Bannockburn) is my friend Dr Fiona Watson. I can't say she hasn't got an axe to grind, though, as she is a Unionist.

If you want a all-in-one Scottish history book, "Scotland: a new history" by Michael Lynch might fit the bill. It's necessarily short on detail in many areas, though. The old favourites are TC Smout's various books, such as the classic "A History of the Scottish People 1560-1830". He isn't without his problems, though, and has been criticised for a "Caledonian cringe" (a sense that Scotland is an inferior place with much to be embarrassed about in its arts and music and so on).

"The Scottish Nation: 1700-2007" by Tom Devine is a good option for Scotland going into the Union up to date.

I'll be back. Just got to do something in real life...
 
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