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Will you vote for independence?

Scottish independence?

  • Yes please

    Votes: 99 56.6%
  • No thanks

    Votes: 57 32.6%
  • Dont know yet

    Votes: 17 9.7%

  • Total voters
    175
Final year of uni and various personal problems this past year has meant I couldn't really do anything over this period but definitely going to look into getting involved in some way or another now. Going to have a gander at the radical independence conference . . .
 
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The Unionist parties might like to think they've won this but they haven't and it's not over. 10 incidents of electoral fraud in Glasgow alone are being investigated by the police, there are other allegations too.
Electoral fraud happens in every election, and is rightly taken seriously. But 10 votes is utterly irrelevant when you're looking at 3.5m+ votes, and a winning margin of around 400,000. To swing that number of votes would require major league vote rigging, something which would be exceptionally hard to get away with given the intense scrutiny over this vote. It'd be a reasonable argument in Zimbabwe, but not in the UK.
 
Why not? (i'm not saying any model will be).The executive runs thing not (or the cabinet) - MPs don't matter.
Because the rushed changes we will see implemented won't just be in the periphery, but will affect Westminster itself in one way or another. Two tier MPs will mean some governments won't be able to pass legislation, for example. There is currently a backlash from some English MPs, and there will be a backlash to the backlash. How, for example, will the Tories sell 2nd class Westminster membership to Ulster Unionists? They'd see that as an attack on the concept of Union. So, would they be exempted? And how long would that stick for?

All previous devolution measures have been about changing the governance of the periphery. Now the governance of the centre is being changed. And unintended consequences will raise their heads.

For that reason, I will not be supporting the clamour for federalism.
 
The only balanced settlement would be a federal uk, I agree. I also agree that we're unlikely to get it. But we are likely to get some kind of fudge, which may or may not include a nod towards federalism.

I think you may be underestimating the durability of unstable solutions. Northern Ireland is a highly unstable 'solution' that has endured for nearly a century now.
See my post above. Northern Ireland isn't on the banks of the Thames, and doesn't host the government of this Union.
 
To go along with Gladstone's thinking (and lets face it he had more parliamentary and political experience than any of the current bunch of chancers (I can't see pubs and blue plaques to Cameron being around in 2114), the only workable solution was to increase the size of the home rule constituencies so there were less of these MP's in the Commons.
 
To go along with Gladstone's thinking (and lets face it he had more parliamentary and political experience than any of the current bunch of chancers (I can't see pubs and blue plaques to Cameron being around in 2114), the only workable solution was to increase the size of the home rule constituencies so there were less of these MP's in the Commons.
That's already been done. We used to have 72 Westminster constituencies in Scotland. It's 55 now. How far would you continue the trend? When would No voters wonder what remains of the Union they voted for?
 
That's already been done. We used to have 72 Westminster constituencies in Scotland. It's 55 now. How far would you continue the trend? When would No voters wonder what remains of the Union they voted for?
Scottish constituencies have same size electorate as English, Wales smaller. Not my genie, or bottle. What I don't think England wants is a new tier of politicians sitting in regional assemblies. Certainly think you'd have to plebicite before introducing (again), think Milliband has been outmanoeuvred. But its a mess and think Gladstone was right you can't have two tier MP's with the speaker deciding on every vote who gets to vote, they have enough trouble with Bercow as it is.

Ironically what will reduce the problem is a shed load of SNP MP's that don't vote on English matters on principle.

Going to be a farce.
 
What level of support is there in the English "regions" for devolved powers? You'd think they'd want it for the same reasons as Scotland yet I hear few calls for it. Is that just because I'm in London, or is the fact that they don't have an "nation" to organise around, as scotland does, a hindrance to enough momentum ever gathering?
 
Scottish constituencies have same size electorate as English, Wales smaller. Not my genie, or bottle. What I don't think England wants is a new tier of politicians sitting in regional assemblies. Certainly think you'd have to plebicite before introducing (again), think Milliband has been outmanoeuvred. But its a mess and think Gladstone was right you can't have two tier MP's with the speaker deciding on every vote who gets to vote, they have enough trouble with Bercow as it is.

Ironically what will reduce the problem is a shed load of SNP MP's that don't vote on English matters on principle.

Going to be a farce.
I agree there'll be a farce. What interests me is how much further you think constituencies should be enlarged & reduced in number, beyond what was already planned prior to the referendum? (http://www.bcomm-scotland.independent.gov.uk/6th_westminster/)

I'm not disagreeing with the constitutional logic, by the way. But there are other considerations. Like how many of those who voted No will be pissed off by the move, and at what point the disillusionment begins? 48 constituencies? 45? 40?
 
Is that just because I'm in London
It's worth pointing out again, since everyone seems to forget it, London is the only English region that already has devolution; the London mayor and assembly.

Will numbers of London MPs be reduced? Will they be prevented from voting on English measures that are covered by the powers of their devolution settlement?
 
I'd venture that London is similar to Scotland in that it tends to vote quite differently to the UK as a whole, and many Londoners feel that the UK government is decided by provincial conservatives (big and small C) in the same way that many Scots feel it's decided by wealthy southerners.
 
I have long proposed a London/Scotland union, dumping the rest of the UK. There would be a high speed rail link between the two with military protection, to allow me to safely go home for Christmas etc.
 
I agree there'll be a farce. What interests me is how much further you think constituencies should be enlarged & reduced in number, beyond what was already planned prior to the referendum? (http://www.bcomm-scotland.independent.gov.uk/6th_westminster/)

I'm not disagreeing with the constitutional logic, by the way. But there are other considerations. Like how many of those who voted No will be pissed off by the move, and at what point the disillusionment begins? 48 constituencies? 45? 40?
For weighting to have any impact you are looking at <48, probably lower, and I agree it would have an impact on feeling up here,but the real battle ground would be Wales which is disproportionately overrepresented, but would go from minding its own business to getting itself kicked in the teeth.


A long way to run yet though, quite enjoying Michael Gove pushing to make John Bercow omnipotent. (they haven't thought it through)
 
Incidentally, I think the Yes campaigners who are identifying themselves as "The 45" are making a strategic mistake. They're excluding those who voted No on the understanding that "the Vow" would take effect, making it harder for them to move to a pro-independence stance if they become disillusioned with the progress of the devo timetable.

The pro independence movement needs to welcome those people, not exclude them, or refer to them as "the enemy" (as I saw some say on Friday, in a fit of bitterness reminiscent of Sillars' "90 minute patriots" jibe).
 
Incidentally, I think the Yes campaigners who are identifying themselves as "The 45" are making a strategic mistake. They're excluding those who voted No on the understanding that "the Vow" would take effect, making it harder for them to move to a pro-independence stance if they become disillusioned with the progress of the devo timetable.

The pro independence movement needs to welcome those people, not exclude them, or refer to them as "the enemy" (as I saw some say on Friday, in a fit of bitterness reminiscent of Sillars' "90 minute patriots" jibe).
Been ranting about this on facebook myself. So much wrong with 'the 45' as a platform. As you say it basically creates a little self-congratulatory club that says 'you're not invited' to precisely the people we need to bring on board to change anything. And the Jacobite connotations make my republican teeth ache. Also, the '45 Rising was a gigantic failure :hmm:
 
Incidentally, I think the Yes campaigners who are identifying themselves as "The 45" are making a strategic mistake. They're excluding those who voted No on the understanding that "the Vow" would take effect, making it harder for them to move to a pro-independence stance if they become disillusioned with the progress of the devo timetable.

They're not excluding anyone afaic see.
Day 3 - New moderation policy

We are the 45 encourages comments and intelligent discussion on our Facebook page regarding the independence of Scotland.
When posting comments, please review and adhere to the moderation policy.

There are many eyes on us at the minute so every participant must aim to:
Accept the rational opinion of others, even if it's opposing
Try and keep the swearing to a minimum (we know it's difficult)

The size of this movement also requires us to implement a strong moderation policy.

Instant bans will be imposed for:
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If you find comments that may violate the moderation policy, you may report it to the moderators by clicking the ‘X’ in the top right of the comment box and clicking ‘Report as Abuse.’

Thanks to all of you that contributed to this last night especially Ross Mould who penned a great deal of this text.

All comments welcome.
 
They're not excluding anyone afaic see.
By calling themselves the 45 they are literally identifying as the minority, as opposed to the 55% who voted No. It's daft, it's elitist, and it's offputting to people who might now be or might soon be regretting their No vote.

This is obvious stuff: people need room to reverse. You if you don't allow them room to manoeuvre, they'll just drive off.

As for the Facebook group, they can do what they like, I'm not on Facebook. I'm on about adopting the losing percentage as a name and slogan.
 
I quite liked the idea of the Scotland Alliance (SSP, Greens, SNP) standing at Westminster. Something like AllYes would be great. A couple SSP candidates would be great, would love to see Leckie or Fox in the Commons.
 
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