redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
That's as may be but it's different from your original claim that they were socialist.
Will you vote for independence?
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muscovyduck
Good IT skills and food hygiene competent
That's a weird new use of 'only about the second time'
I haven't been counting, but if you look back at my posts throughout Urban, you'll find I've been studiously polite to other posters.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
You'd been pointlessly rude more than one time on this thread alone over the last few weeks. What image of yourself must you have?
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DairyQueen
Well-Known Member
We've not voted right-wing for decades.
There is no real prospect of democratic reforms at Westminster for at least 10-15 years. 'Social democratic' parties (but not the left-wing) are falling left, right and centre across Europe. You know why? They don't represent the working class any more. Labour haven't because the Westminster electoral system makes it virtually impossible. Add to that the House of Lords. What we have is entrenched power. Westminster has never been representative of the people, it is thoroughly undemocratic in almost every way. Our elections are largely a sham, and even the manifestos (produced for elections where there is guaranteed to be a winner of the choice of two) are not worth anything. We have some rights and liberties, but they are far from sacred.
Holyrood would be far more representative, contain many more political parties, and give a reason for poor people to campaign on political platforms that are important to them. Doing that now is totally pointless unless you join one of the two big parties that don't represent anyone and will ignore your cause if it is not a cheap, insignificant vote winner.
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muscovyduck
Good IT skills and food hygiene competent
Don't worry, I'm not saying you're one of the worst posters on here. I just think you've acted quite rude to people on this thread at times. I also think the fact you've tried to lie about being on the fence is rude, to be honest, and I think some of the debating/arguing tactics you've used aren't okay. You come across like a Tory. You expect us to listen to you but you're not listening to us.
I still value your input on other threads. If you changed the way you act on this thread I'd probably value you input on Scottish Independence. But yeah
I'm sorry you think I've lied about being on the fence. I have not, and am still on the fence.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
On what will you be basing your decision?
As I said above:
Really, and I must thank you in particular for helping me come to this realisation, anything that will be sorted within a few years can be ignored, because they will get sorted out. If you cast your mind back, I've long had a longer-term perspective. But it was not to the extent I have now decided.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Cheers.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
BTW, with regards to why people are voting Yes, there's a Twitter hashtag you may be interested in: #YesBecause
geminisnake
a complex mass of conflicting ideas
You could maybe pm Sas, seeing as he's the only Scot I know on here who is definetly no. As others have said if we are better together why do we have such high levels of deprivation in so many areas?
I really don't see how anyone with any kind of moral conscience can vote No. I don't want to be part of a country who demonises the sick, elderly and the poor while the MPs and Lords milk the system for millions more than the afore mentioned ever will. The House of Lords get £300 a day EACH for turning up yet still get subsidised meals. How is that right and fair when working families are having to queue at foodbanks?
He has declined to engage in public debate.
But will independence fix that or make it worse? The additional revenue from oil will help make it better in the short term, but I'm looking well beyond that.
Have you worked the figures through?
The House of Lords sits for 149 days a year. So a member attending every day would earn £44,700. And they have to turn up every day. There's no sick pay, no paid leave. Many Urbs earn more than that. Many Urbs earn a lot more. (kabbes did a poll a while back on this.) Of course, they usually have pensions etc. The total expenses cost of the HoL is ~£17M. There are 775 members so that's £22K apiece. That's about the same as the national average wage. And remember, they only get paid when they show up. That doesn't seem so bad,now, does it?
Have you checked the MSP expenses situation? £12.2M in the year to Sep 2013, and that was down £500K on the previous year. There are 128 MSPs, so that's £95K apiece. And they get a salary on top. Then there's the House of Commons: £98.1M for 650 MPs. Or £151K apiece. Plus salary on top. By those standards, the House of Lords is a bargain!
No, the expenses of the House of Lords are not a valid reason for independence.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
Well I aren't, I am wholly in the keep the union camp.
I would be delighted to hear your reasons.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Do you have a vote in the referendum?
weltweit
Well-Known Member
- Britain is just a small collection of islands, it makes sense to be united. Otherwise where will it all end, how small can you dice a small island like ours, when will it stop?
- Influence on the world scene, united the UK has a larger voice and Scotland is a part of that.
- If you believe in Scottish independence then you will probably also believe in Catalan independence, Basque independence etc etc - again where will it all end?
- 200 years of history, we have been together a while.
- Scotland and England (or rUK) trade significantly one with another. A border is not required.
- A level of devolution is present already and could be extended on a no vote.
- I am half Scottish, my Scottish mother was pro union, she wanted Scotland and England / Wales to get along - I think is desirable.
- The UK Armed forces have a history of recruitment in Scotland which has permitted Scottish recruits to travel and see the world. After a Yes vote this will cease.
- The UK's Submarine launched Nuclear Weapons are currently in Scotland bringing employment, these will relocate to the south on a yes vote. Loss of jobs.
- Much of the shipbuilding for the UK Navy takes place in Scotland bringing jobs, these will revert to the south on a yes vote.
- A yes vote will create a country called Scotland which will no longer be part of the UK. But if it keeps the pound, its economy will still be driven by the Bank of England. If it adopts the Euro it will be driven by the EU. If it creates its own currency but wants to be part of the EU, it will be driven by the EU. Basically within Europe, especially if you want to be in a part of the EU there is no such thing as independence. Effectively Scotland will be just exchanging Westminster for the EU.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
No, I don't.
None of those will actually matter geopolitically if Scotland joins the EU; it will matter if Scotland does not. Indeed, (tin foil hat alert!) you could argue that it's the EU that is encouraging all the local independence movements: an EU full of microstates will be far easier for a federal EU to control.
Over 250 as a union, and about 400 as a union of crowns.
As part of the EU, there will be free trade.
Actually, it will be, but who knows about the longer term?
The Scottish diaspora is already significant. I assume iScotland will contribute to the UN peacekeeping missions and make use of foreign training facilities in exchange for their making use of ours.
I agree with you on this, but the majority of Scots don't want nukes. On the jobs side, yes, there will be short-term hardship, but those workers have skills they can bring to other employments.
Again, this is a short term issue. Maybe I'm being cynical, but I wouldn't be surprised if those jobs were only in Scotland in the first place to shore up Labour votes.
This is a biggie with long term impact. I have asked a very similar question of Yes Scotland and have received no answer; I don't have an answer either.
geminisnake
a complex mass of conflicting ideas
Pms aren't public.
I couldn't give a monkey's toss what the average Urb earns, £44k is NOT the average Scottish wage. The expense of the HoL may not be a valid reason to you but it is to me and 100s of others. How many Lords do you see in the queues for a fucking foodbank?
I give up, I really do!
You are misquoting me. £22K - the average cost of each Lord - is about the average Scottish wage.
You forget that many Scots fought on the side of the Union. You also forget that the war was about the throne of Great Britain, not just the throne of Scotland. The line is about the rebellion rather than the Scots.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
I'm glad, given the following.
- Britain is just a small collection of islands, it makes sense to be united. Otherwise where will it all end, how small can you dice a small island like ours, when will it stop?
Where does unification stop, then? Do we tell the 175 countries with a landmass less than the UK that they’re making a mistake? (http://world.bymap.org/LandArea.html).
Or the 201 countries with a population smaller than the UK? (http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/population-by-country.htm).
There are many successful independent countries with a population similar or smaller than Scotland’s. (For example, the Scandinavian countries, roughly similar in size to Scotland, do very well in world happiness rankings).
2.Influence on the world scene, united the UK has a larger voice and Scotland is a part of that.
The UK has delusions of grandeur, and throws its weight around in global conflicts. Many of us would like to see a Scotland that didn’t do that.
Furthermore, for many, Scotland doesn’t feel a part of the UK voice at all, but an afterthought at best.
3. If you believe in Scottish independence then you will probably also believe in Catalan independence, Basque independence etc etc - again where will it all end?
That doesn’t follow. But the answer to where it ends is “Where people want it to”.
4. 200 years of history, we have been together a while.
That’s not actually a justification for anything, is it? “It’s been going on for a long time”.
5. Scotland and England (or rUK) trade significantly one with another. A border is not required.
a) There are no guarded land borders in the EU. B) You won’t notice the border. c) There are many countries that trade significantly with each other, that nevertheless have different governments. d) How far do you want to take your argument? Should all members of the European Economic Area unite as a single state?
6. A level of devolution is present already and could be extended on a no vote.
None of the powers offered during this campaign would protect funding of the NHS in Scotland. No party is offering devolution of benefits. No party is offering devolved powers that would enable Scotland to renationalise the Royal Mail. And so on.
Furthermore, the “offers” are not to be trusted. Devo max could have been on the ballot paper, but the Unionist Parties blocked that.
Finally, power granted by Westminster can be taken away.
7. I am half Scottish, my Scottish mother was pro union, she wanted Scotland and England / Wales to get along - I think is desirable.
There is no reason for people not to “get along” with people they don’t share a government with. That’s a bizarre assumption.
8. The UK Armed forces have a history of recruitment in Scotland which has permitted Scottish recruits to travel and see the world. After a Yes vote this will cease.
I don’t actually think it’s a positive thing that so many young people in Scotland feel they have little choice other than to join the forces. I think it even less positive that they are sent by their political masters to conflicts we should stay out of.
However, I’m sure you’ll be delighted to hear that Scotland will continue to have armed forces after independence.
9. The UK's Submarine launched Nuclear Weapons are currently in Scotland bringing employment, these will relocate to the south on a yes vote. Loss of jobs.
I want them gone as soon as possible. I hope they’ll be dismantled and relocate nowhere.
(According to the MOD there are 520 direct jobs. I think we can easily spend the money saved better and more efficiently on far more jobs. http://news.stv.tv/politics/197151-...ow-erupts-over-extent-of-trident-jobs-threat/).
10. Much of the shipbuilding for the UK Navy takes place in Scotland bringing jobs, these will revert to the south on a yes vote.
We've discussed this. The answer is: Not according to the MOD. But in any case, Scotland will need its own fleet. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-19955309)
11. A yes vote will create a country called Scotland which will no longer be part of the UK. But if it keeps the pound, its economy will still be driven by the Bank of England. If it adopts the Euro it will be driven by the EU. If it creates its own currency but wants to be part of the EU, it will be driven by the EU. Basically within Europe, especially if you want to be in a part of the EU there is no such thing as independence. Effectively Scotland will be just exchanging Westminster for the EU.
What do you think the role of the Bank of England is presently? George Osborne currently has no control over interest rates.
Currency has in any case been copiously discussed on this thread.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Oh, for the Love of Darwin! I wrote "presently" when I meant "at present".
Shoot me now.
Shoot me now.
Oh, for the Love of Darwin! I wrote "presently" when I meant "at present".
Shoot me now.
Oh, I'm sure everyone will forgive you momentarily.
Frankie Jack
Not a bloke..
A small lapse among many eloquent and informative posts dlr.. No sniper aim from this angle.Oh, for the Love of Darwin! I wrote "presently" when I meant "at present".
Shoot me now.
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