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Will you vote for independence?

Scottish independence?

  • Yes please

    Votes: 99 56.6%

  • No thanks

    Votes: 57 32.6%

  • Dont know yet

    Votes: 17 9.7%
  • Total voters
    175
Orange Order statement on Scottish independence...

The eminent historian Prof Tom Devine took everyone by surprise with his St Patrick’s Day claim that Scotland’s Roman Catholics were the religious group most likely to back Scottish independence. An entrenched support for the Labour Party among the Catholic working class that once shaped the politics of Glasgow and the West of Scotland has certainly been weakening in recent years. The SNP’s commitment to a generous welfare system has eroded Labour support among the lowest income groups where many families of Irish extraction are to be found.
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Welcome to Unionism in Scotland. Endorsed by George Galloway.
 
looks like we have another Independence bumphlet incoming from the Scottish Government this time. I'm sure it won't be in any way like the one from Wastemonster styled in the Watchtower fashion.


A "short guide to independence" is to be published by the Scottish government and distributed to every household in Scotland.

It will be accompanied by an increased online campaign from next week.

This will be targeted at women and young people in particular in the lead up to the referendum in September.

The UK government is also sending out a booklet to every home in Scotland, detailing what it sees are the benefits of the Union.
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No blacks, no dogs, no Irish is still going strong in some parts of Scotland. Just not so overt.
 
Just went and got the new pizza-hut flyer that came through the door today....another BT pamphlet....same one, third time in just over a week.
 
danny la rouge said:
http://jpubhealth.oxfordjournals.org/content/21/1/46.full.pdf?origin=publication_detail

Researchers at Glasgow University in 1999 found that men with Irish surnames in west-central Scotland are 26% more likely than other Scots to die prematurely. (One of the authors is a good friend of mine).
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It is really sad that in all the negative coverage of Scotland in the British press, genuine discrimination and injustices in the country are not being highlighted. And we wonder why these issues are still prevalent in our society (the perpetrators vote the right way).
 
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I had a conversation yesterday with an English friend who ran an advertising company and retired a mega-millionaire. I'm highly précising the conversation (and many thanks to danny la rouge in particular for some of the points I raised). I was careful to maintain a neutral, undecided, stance. He wants shot of Scotland because it's a financial drain on the UK economy (long term) but doesn't believe it will happen.

My friend predicts a 15%+ majority in favour of the Union. He likened the SNP to UKIP saying that people are happy to vote for them when they don't think it matters, like in the Euro elections, but when it comes to the crunch, they won't. He similarly predicts a UKIP collapse at the next General Election. He thinks that an independent Scotland will have higher taxes. He points out that North Sea Oil is running out. And when it comes to actually putting the X on the ballot paper, he thinks the Scots will stick with the Union because it will cost them less.

I suggested that for a lot of people, Scottish independence is a matter of emotion, not facts and figures, but he thought Scots were more attuned to their personal economy than that. WRT opinion polls he noted that in his professional experience people often say one thing and do another.

Arguing against himself, he noted the racism of the Scots against the English, recalling that he gradually lost all his Scottish clients to Scottish firms - as soon as he had a Scottish competitor for the client, he lost the client.

He was pleasantly surprised at the conditions for voter eligibility and said that they were good and sensible.

Eventually, another friend broke in and demanded the conversation be turned to lighter matters. Make of my friend's thoughts what you will.
 
Quartz said:
Make of my friend's thoughts what you will.
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OK: they're largely wrong.

Likening the SNP to UKIP is wrong in many ways, and not just policy; in his own terms (electoral behaviour), the analogy is badly evidenced. The SNP has formed the government in Holrood since 2007, when it was the largest party, although it didn't have an overall majority. It formed the government until the next election. Rather than panic, the electorate then went on to give the SNP an overall majority in 2011. UKIP, on the other hand hasn't even got control of a council (SNP is also largest party in local government in Scotland).

The referendum is not an election. On 18th Sept we are voting on whether or not we want Scotland to be independent. It's not a vote for which party should form the government. We are being asked to vote Yes or No to this question: "Should Scotland be an independent country?".

As for North Sea Oil running out, that's scarcely relevant; it will run out whether we vote Yes or No. But at any rate has some decades left to run. Around 40 years, at current estimates. (The question is, how best should that resource be managed? 70% of oil workers in recent surveys said they'd vote Yes).

There are anti-English bigots voting Yes and No. They are a minority. The demand for Yes is not about being anti English, it's about getting things done that many Scots want done and don't see Westminster getting round to: getting rid of Trident; renationalising Royal Mail; defending the NHS etc.

The point about the Union "costing less" is questionable; less than what? (And how do we measure "cost"? Losing the Welfare state? Losing the NHS?) But even if it's basic rate of taxation we're talking about, that's a scare story; there is a high enough tax take in Scotland to rearrange priorities and still keep the basic rate the same. Voters may perceive a lower cost by staying in the Union, but that's a different matter. I'm not going to take lessons on tax levels from a "mega-millionaire". (If he read the White Paper, btw, he'd be pleasantly surprised. I, however, hope he'd be taxed until his pips squeak by a government of a different stripe).

As to whether Yes or No will win, No is still ahead in the polls, but the undecideds still outstrip the gap. We'll see.
 
Quartz said:
He started with no more than a state education.
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What he started with 50 or so years ago, depending on his age, has no bearing on what opportunities are available today.

Advertising companies do what they have to making propaganda work for whoever pays them.

Most of us are sick of being termed drains on UK resources too. We pay more than our fair share to the UK economy and are sick and tired of it being used to fill the pockets of corporate capitalists.
 
Just a small example of pathetic Wastemonster. DWP/IDS/Freud wanted savings of £650 million via the Bedroom Tax while Scotland Office spent £720k on a bumphlet.
What The Actual Fuck eh?

Edited for glaring angry mistake.
 
Quartz said:
I had a conversation yesterday with an English friend who ran an advertising company and retired a mega-millionaire. I'm highly précising the conversation (and many thanks to danny la rouge in particular for some of the points I raised). I was careful to maintain a neutral, undecided, stance. He wants shot of Scotland because it's a financial drain on the UK economy (long term) but doesn't believe it will happen.

My friend predicts a 15%+ majority in favour of the Union. He likened the SNP to UKIP saying that people are happy to vote for them when they don't think it matters, like in the Euro elections, but when it comes to the crunch, they won't. He similarly predicts a UKIP collapse at the next General Election. He thinks that an independent Scotland will have higher taxes. He points out that North Sea Oil is running out. And when it comes to actually putting the X on the ballot paper, he thinks the Scots will stick with the Union because it will cost them less.

I suggested that for a lot of people, Scottish independence is a matter of emotion, not facts and figures, but he thought Scots were more attuned to their personal economy than that. WRT opinion polls he noted that in his professional experience people often say one thing and do another.

Arguing against himself, he noted the racism of the Scots against the English, recalling that he gradually lost all his Scottish clients to Scottish firms - as soon as he had a Scottish competitor for the client, he lost the client.

He was pleasantly surprised at the conditions for voter eligibility and said that they were good and sensible.

Eventually, another friend broke in and demanded the conversation be turned to lighter matters. Make of my friend's thoughts what you will.
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He just sounds like a standard Telegraph reading Tory that knows nothing about Scottish politics and has no interest in learning. The SNP is the most pro-EU/pro-immigration mainstream party in Scotland (probably in the UK). He is simply trying to attach middle-England behavior to Scotland. Unionism in Scotland is far more bigoted and insidious than the Scottish independence movement. In fact, I know a few people who are voting no because they do not agree with the SNP statements on immigration. Although I have heard an argument that goes along the lines of "if the SNP did not exist, the far-right, British nationalist parties would benefit".

The SNP have been around since the war, and get six MPs in a disappointing election. If UKIP managed that (and they would stand across the UK), it would be considered a major breakthrough and they would be guaranteed blanket coverage on the BBC.

Finally, what your friend is suggesting is that the Scottish Parliament is not important, thus the SNP get votes. No unionist leader has dared make such a claim. If all he is saying is that if Scotland becomes wealthy like the South East with similar demographics, parts of the country will become Tory voters is a pointless argument to make. The Westminster dip in their support has much more to do with the fact the SNP cannot win a Westminster election.

It seems like your friend is just rehashing the old (and newer) Labour arguments, which boil down to "my mates deserve to control <insert West of Scotland council here>". In all seriousness, I do not know a more vicious and unlikable bunch as Scottish Labour.
 
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DairyQueen said:
Unionism in Scotland is far more bigoted and insidious than the Scottish independence movement.
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I've had No voters say to me "I hate the English as much as anyone, but I'm a Gers fan, so I'm voting for the Union".

The Unionism those people espouse is a fossil. What they often don't realise they are supporting is a tradition rather than a contemporary policy; what they're reacting to is the support for the Union between Great Britain and Ireland that was threatened by Gladstone's First Home Rule Bill. That's the Unionism of the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party. It has unthinkingly been transferred to the Union between Scotland and England.

(I'm not suggesting all Rangers fans are bigots or even Unionists. I've met plenty who are voting Yes, and we know that many vote SNP - although it should be noted that support for independence is still behind support for the SNP in polls. I am suggesting that there's a stubbornly bigoted demographic there, who are simultaneously anti-English and pro-Union).
 
I wanted to add something about the unedifying spectacle of George Galloway playing the sectarian card in support of the Union. But I'll let him do it:

 
danny la rouge said:
I wanted to add something about the unedifying spectacle of George Galloway playing the sectarian card in support of the Union. But I'll let him do it:
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George Galloway is a desperate attention-seeker. Not sure I could name a bigger hypocrit. This is a guy who has claimed to be an Irish Republican (or "supports Irish Unity"). Post-referendum, he will continue desperately spouting controversial statements until even RT cannot be bothered with him. Typical Labour dinosaur, campaigned with socialists throughout his political career, start calling them all sorts of names for a little bit of coverage.
 
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but but but, if you vote "Yes" you'll be pleasing the communists! says Gove :facepalm:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...pendence-would-invigorate-Vladimir-Putin.html

Vladimir Putin would be invigorated by Scottish independence, Michael Gove said yesterday in rare comments on the referendum debate.

The Russian leader would think the United Kingdom's separation puts him in a "stronger position" to dictate to the world, the Education Secretary warned.

Enemies of the West would cheer a Yes vote because the "second principal beacon of liberty" in the world would become more unstable, he suggested.
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"second principal beacon of liberty"
w the f f? :eek:
 
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