littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Combining 'aspie' with 'cunt' as an insult is not good.
Wikileaks: Heroes of free speech or dangerous subversives?
- Thread starter ItWillNeverWork
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kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Peter and Condi sitting in a tree K-I-S-S-I-N-G
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
I like to think I'm the delunded loon on urban but I'm just not in the same league
Delunded? Removed from your natural habitat in the Bristol channel?
Louis MacNeice
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
.
Good man Peter Dow.
This is the most amusing news story in years, as well as the most important. So funny to see the squirming of those who thought they could do their nasty work in secret.
The rape allegation is the most obvious stitch-up I have ever heard of. Spymaster is taking the piss and best ignored.
Best revelation of today was Shell's stranglehold on Nigeria. No surprise, but it's excellent to have solid evidence for such things.
On to the next...
This is the most amusing news story in years, as well as the most important. So funny to see the squirming of those who thought they could do their nasty work in secret.
The rape allegation is the most obvious stitch-up I have ever heard of. Spymaster is taking the piss and best ignored.
Best revelation of today was Shell's stranglehold on Nigeria. No surprise, but it's excellent to have solid evidence for such things.
On to the next...
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
nobody made an accusation of rape though , yet you insist on claiming they did . And insist repeatedly . Why you keep insisiting hes accused of raping someone when he patently is ot accused of it is for reasons bes known to yourself .
Bearing in mind theres a fuck off cyber war raging accross the globe at the minute against people who've crossed this man in a variety of ways including calling him a rapist I personally wouldnt think it very clever to be traipsing around the internet calling him a rapist like you keep doing . Particularly when he isnt even accused of rape .
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
It has been suggested by the prosecutor that one of the alleged offences consitutes rape, the other, sexual molestation. My posts on this thread have been entirely consistent with this.
I've accused him of nothing. But anyway, surely I've nothing to worry about from these impassioned defenders of free speech.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
I actually thought that Peter was taking the piss.
I still reckon he had his tongue stuck firmly in his cheek when he posted that!
I have never known the Dowmeister to be anything but earnest and forthright. Have you?
Peter Dow
Standard Bearer
Whose is the face of "The Machine"?
The Independent: WikiLeaks vs The Machine
If you were to put a face to the Independent's "The Machine" whose face would it be? Obama? Clinton? No. Here is my suggestion.
If, as the Independent says, this is a fight between WikiLeaks and the machine, I am siding with the machine.
The Independent: WikiLeaks vs The Machine
If you were to put a face to the Independent's "The Machine" whose face would it be? Obama? Clinton? No. Here is my suggestion.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Tbh, Phil, Peter seems to have passed under my radar, although I've just had a read of some of his backposts and kinda like him!
Hopefully we'll see a little more of him.
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
yes, I'm pretty sure that was satire
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Nope. Totally and completely in earnest.
Peter has a crush on Ms Rice.
To get back to the OP, I agree with phildwyer. Wikileaks is almost certainly saving lives through its actions because it is hurting the operations of those that are doing most of the killing – the war machines of the US, UK and others. Those that run said war machines will of course claim the opposite, that lives are being endangered by wikileaks, and perhaps some lives are, but on balance, the US, UK, etc kill much more than they are killed. For every 'allied' soldier killed in Iraq/Afghanistan, how many Iraqis/Aghans are killed? 10 perhaps. 100 more likely.
audiotech
wav, aiff, mp3, ogg, flac
A comment from 'SpeaksForBoskone.'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/08/wikileaks-visa-mastercard-operation-payback
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/08/wikileaks-visa-mastercard-operation-payback
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
So there have been significant changes to the ROE in both theatres that mean less people are being killed? Really? You think?
I don't think it's making a single iota of difference to the way the wars are being conducted on the ground, or will.
Random
Ethnic nalgocrat
Eich! Ploor!
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
We've yet to see the wider fall-out. Hopefully it will mean significant changes to the rules of engagement, yes. But more than that, it ought to lead people to question what a 'theatre of war' is. Currently, the streets of an occupied city are defined as a theatre of war by the occupiers, and people are mowed down in those streets as a consequence. The publicisation of atrocities in Vietnam served to wake many in the US up to what was being done in their name. Hopefully this will help to do the same for this new generation.
But my point was actually simpler than that – if these leaks weaken the operations of the killing machines, they will kill fewer people out of diminished efficiency.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
dp
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Given that there have already been many, many stories about how the combination of poor intel & use of drones & CAS is the primary cause of civilian casualties in Afghanistan, and they've done nothing, why will these leaks change anything? There've been more atrocities publicised from these wars than any other, yet the methods used that led to those atrocities continue.
Nah, I don't buy it. As for the diplomatic/business fallout, whomever wants to but a gun and doesn't want to buy it from an American still has the Russians, Chinese, Swedes, Fins, UK etc to buy their bombs from. Countries which might not have such a lax approach to the security of their diplomatic cables as the US.
Nah, I don't buy it. As for the diplomatic/business fallout, whomever wants to but a gun and doesn't want to buy it from an American still has the Russians, Chinese, Swedes, Fins, UK etc to buy their bombs from. Countries which might not have such a lax approach to the security of their diplomatic cables as the US.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Some excellent analysis by the Guardian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/dec/09/nobody-gains-from-misogynist-defence-of-assange
<Courtesy of Keyser on the other thread>
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/dec/09/nobody-gains-from-misogynist-defence-of-assange
<Courtesy of Keyser on the other thread>
elbows
Well-Known Member
Oh dear, this is getting rather messy now eh. I am quite disturbed by the way the way the rape allegations can be completely dismissed by so many people. The problem is that just because you can find quite plausible motives why people would want to stitch up Assange, and the timing smells funny, does not mean it actually is a baseless stitch-up. It could be, but certainties seem foolish - exactly the same phenomenon that happens with conspiracy theories in general. This does not mean such things should not be discussed, I believe discussing all possibilities is healthy, but the human desire to form conclusions rather taints the proceedings.
On another front, the Anonymous stuff could easily backfire and have unpleasant consequences, at the very least it gives further opportunity to conflate multiple issues and turn it all into an exciting and superficial story. Anything to get attention away from the 'dull' details contained in the leaks themselves.
As far as Im concerned a good deal of the plight of humanity can be attributed to the nature of what sorts of stories appeal to us, and our inability to separate specific people from the systems and issues. We'll pay a price for paying attention to the wrong things, and couching stuff in the wrong terms, as we always have done.
On another front, the Anonymous stuff could easily backfire and have unpleasant consequences, at the very least it gives further opportunity to conflate multiple issues and turn it all into an exciting and superficial story. Anything to get attention away from the 'dull' details contained in the leaks themselves.
As far as Im concerned a good deal of the plight of humanity can be attributed to the nature of what sorts of stories appeal to us, and our inability to separate specific people from the systems and issues. We'll pay a price for paying attention to the wrong things, and couching stuff in the wrong terms, as we always have done.
Yuwipi Woman
Whack-A-Mole Queen
My concern is that it gives the people who want to lock down the internet more ammunition. I heard one Republican politician saying earlier today that Net Neutrality has to go.....
elbows
Well-Known Member
Yes thats one of the concerns for sure. In the past I have struggled a bit on the narrow focus on 'net neutrality' that the debate seems to take stateside, there are real issues with that stuff but in terms of wider internet freedom and concerns for the future, there is so much more to it.
Pretty much from the beginning of the public internet, there have always existed a few scenarios where our governments could pull the plug on the net as we know it, and could do it under existing legislation if they really thought they had to. And the main safeguards against such things happening arent based in law either, its more to do with the vast amount of commerce & other forms of work/business and parts of systems that get carried out on the net, which ensures that any decision to pull the plug on the masses access to the web, even if only for a limited geographical region for a limited time, would not be taken lightly. There is also a generation now that never really knew the world before the internet, which encourages ideas about having the right to access the web as we know it.
However that doesnt stop specific activities/groups on the web from being targeted in a variety of ways or used as part of a different agenda. Governments such as ours may indeed try to shape the web in a way that restricts thought-crimes and troublesome people-power, although such as quest to make the web safe, dull & entirely shiny corporate plastic is not exactly easy. Cant remove any of the aspects of humans from the web easily, but suspect they will try using tried-and-tested methods of fear by making an example of certain people.
Of course we also have to watch out for wider changes in the world having instant and far-reaching ramifications for the web. Nobody can be utterly complacent about the prospects for almost any country ending up under an overtly totalitarian regime that would think less about tampering with the web in cruder and more dramatic ways. Likewise I certainly dont take the international aspect of the internet as a permanent given. If globalisation went tits up and nations were far more hostile to eachother, its not hard to imagine us eventually ending up with regional or national versions of the internet instead of what we know today.
Er ... yes ... but with, er, some secrets about what your actual bottom line is ...
Thanks for confirming that there are entirely valid and unavoidable reasons why some secrecy is necessary ...
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