Why the Guardian is going down the pan!

[PTK]

There are no UFOs, it's all UAPs now (Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena)

What about identified anomalous phenomena? Where do they fit in? Perhaps if they are identified, then they cannot be anomalous. In which case, why not drop “Unidentified” and use the term Anomalous Phenomena? The trouble is, that would include alleged sightings of Yetis and the Loch Ness Monster.

The problem with the term “Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena” arises from the fact that the term was originally "Unidentified Aerial Phenomena", but the second word was changed to "anomalous" when UAPs were, it was claimed, seen entering or emerging from the sea.

 

[Orang Utan]

None of this gets to the heart of the matter - whether people believe that extra-terrestrial beings have visited us or not.

 

[andysays]

Yes it is. It’s a flying object that you havent identified.

The term "UFO" means something more than simply a flying object that the person seeing it hasn't positively identified.

 

[PTK]

None of this gets to the heart of the matter - whether people believe that extra-terrestrial beings have visited us or not.

There is no evidence that ETIs have visited Earth, or any other planet - aprt from that Monolith they spotted on Pluto.

 

[Orang Utan]

The term "UFO" means something more than simply a flying object that the person seeing it hasn't positively identified.

No it doesn’t. UFOs are either human-made aircraft or natural meteorological phenomena. They’re just not identified because those who spot them don’t know this.

 

[brogdale]

Sounds like a little green beings thread is required but everyone's too wary of starting one because ...Jazzzloonery?

 

[Serge Forward]

There is no evidence that ETIs have visited Earth, or any other planet - aprt from that Monolith they spotted on Pluto.

Icehenge?

 

[Orang Utan]

Sounds like a little green beings thread is required but everyone's too wary of starting one because ...Jazzzloonery?

we could just let the conversation run its natural course instead

 

[PTK]

Icehenge?

I could tell you, but then both our lives would be in danger.
Not icehenge, but Kim Stanley Robinson may be part of the conspiracy.

 

[Silas Loom]

I don’t know. Extending the plausible idea of alien life through the myriad layers needed to get to the point of believing that:

• it is so incredibly technologically advanced that it has flown unknowable distances in unknowable ways
• and found this speck of a planet to approach, but
• for some reason has died, and
• been found but covered up by the same incompetent governments that can’t keep a simple leaving party secret
• for decades after decades

Stretches plausibility at least as far as the idea that there might be something we don’t know yet about the laws of entropy that causes ghosts. Or, to put it another way, past any kind of plausibility

I agree that secret alien autopsy narratives are particularly annoying if one isn’t hand-wavy about the ability of governments to keep a secret.

But while it would be very surprising and exciting and perturbing if reliable news media was announcing that, according to scientific consensus, a novel phenomenon was of extraterrestrial origin, it wouldn’t make me cross. I’d be very cross if there was incontrovertible evidence of ghosts without a good explanation about post-entropic resonance or whatever. So even if the plausibilities were comparable, qualitative aspects still differ.

 

[PTK]

I

I don’t know. Extending the plausible idea of alien life through the myriad layers needed to get to the point of believing that:

• it is so incredibly technologically advanced that it has flown unknowable distances in unknowable ways
• and found this speck of a planet to approach, but
• for some reason has died, and
• been found but covered up by the same incompetent governments that can’t keep a simple leaving party secret
• for decades after decades

Stretches plausibility at least as far as the idea that there might be something we don’t know yet about the laws of entropy that causes ghosts. Or, to put it another way, past any kind of plausibility

It is more likely that a state was hiding something than that the laws of physics are wrong.

 

[andysays]

No it doesn’t. UFOs are either human-made aircraft or natural meteorological phenomena. They’re just not identified because those who spot them don’t know this.

How lucky we are to have you here to put us all right with the benefit of your superior knowledge

 

[Silas Loom]

Sounds like a little green beings thread is required but everyone's too wary of starting one because ...Jazzzloonery?

Could you stop othering our putative visitors with slurs concerning size and colour please? Urban has changed. This sort of thing is not on any more,

 

[brogdale]

Could you stop othering our putative visitors with slurs concerning size and colour please? Urban has changed. This sort of thing is not on any more,

and there I was trying hard not to be beingsist

 

[Orang Utan]

How lucky we are to have you here to put us all right with the benefit of your superior knowledge

Smarmy cunt.

 

[Sue]

It is more likely that a state was hiding something than that the laws of physics are wrong.

Ye cannae change the laws of physics.

 

[kabbes]

I

It is more likely that a state was hiding something than that the laws of physics are wrong.

Not really. The “laws” of physics get refined and even partially overturned on a regular basis. But the ability of a state to successfully hide not just “something” but the doing of nefarious things to an intelligence (a) capable of faster-than-light travel (which in its own right requires us to overturn said “laws”), and (b) who has travelled untold distances expressly to meet us? That’s beyond credibility.

 

[Orang Utan]

maybe ‘they’ are here (they aren’t) by mistake. They tripped on a spacerock and fell into a wormhole and ended up here.
This theory is as plausible as the others

 

[SpookyFrank]

The term "UFO" means something more than simply a flying object that the person seeing it hasn't positively identified.

Unless they've add some extra letters to the acronym, no it doesn't.

 

[andysays]

Smarmy cunt.

Smug condescending prick

 

[PTK]

Not really. The “laws” of physics get refined and even partially overturned on a regular basis. But the ability of a state to successfully hide not just “something” but the doing of nefarious things to an intelligence (a) capable of faster-than-light travel (which in its own right requires us to overturn said “laws”), and (b) who has travelled untold distances expressly to meet us? That’s beyond credibility.

Why would the ETIs have travelled faster than light?

 

[kabbes]

Why would the ETIs have travelled faster than light?

What are you suggesting? Sublight speeds?

 

[PTK]

What are you suggesting? Sublight speeds?

Why would ETIs need to travel faster than light? Remember that their subjective time would slow relative to a "stationary" observer, so a journey that might take 1,000 years according to our clocks may only be a couple of years according to the clock of the traveller.

 

[PTK]

.

 

[Orang Utan]

Smug condescending prick

For suggesting something that is correct. Get over yourself, penfold and harrumph yourself shitless

 

[kabbes]

Why would ETIs need to travel faster than light? Remember that their subjective time would slow relative to a "stationary" observer, so a journey that might take 1,000 years according to our clocks may only be a couple of years according to the clock of the traveller.

For time dilation to be appreciable, you have to be travelling pretty close to the speed of light — 0.9c, say — and that requires phenomenal levels of energy for a massive object. But put that to one side. Is your theory that an alien will be happy to abandon its entire civilisation for 2000 years of their time — and use up years’ worth of its own — just to have a quick buzz of the Earth? And then what? Like I say, I find it more plausible that we might have got something wrong in our own current understanding of physics.

 

[PTK]

For time dilation to be appreciable, you have to be travelling pretty close to the speed of light — 0.9c, say — and that requires phenomenal levels of energy for a massive object. But put that to one side. Is your theory that an alien will be happy to abandon its entire civilisation for 2000 years of their time — and use up years’ worth of its own — just to have a quick buzz of the Earth? And then what? Like I say, I find it more plausible that we might have got something wrong in our own current understanding of physics.

I would imagine that it would be an ongoing mission to explore the galaxy, not a "quick buzz". Even if they had faster-than-light technology, they would still not drop in for tea and then go home. Any Earth mission to Mars would put people on the surface for a few months, not a day or two.

 

[kabbes]

I would imagine that it would be an ongoing mission to explore the galaxy, not a "quick buzz". Even if they had faster-than-light technology, they would still not drop in for tea and then go home. Any Earth mission to Mars would put people on the surface for a few months, not a day or two.

Well, that’s rather my point, isn’t it? All of that, all that technology and planning and time and energy. And then what? Some spooks in Area 51 shoot one of them and they all go home again? No way.

 

[Silas Loom]

If a space craft landed and a creature emerged, I wouldn’t automatically assume that they were representative of the original designers. Much more likely to be an engineered lifeform designed for carrying out exploratory activities on the surface of this particular planet; the equivalent of us sending a rover craft.

 

[PTK]

Well, that’s rather my point, isn’t it? All of that, all that technology and planning and time and energy. And then what? Some spooks in Area 51 shoot one of them and they all go home again? No way.

Well, the USA could have shot them all down; but no, I do not believe it credible that the USA or any other state (with the possible exception of San Marino) has had contact with ETIs that it is covering up.