It's you that doesn't get it.
The tories think labour are socialist lefties. Voting the tories out sends them a message. It makes them think. It makes them pick useless leaders like Hague, Howard and IDS, while they sit in the wilderness.
If all things are completely equal, and they are not, then this alone is better than the current situation which is the best case scenario if you refuse to vote next year.
You keep missing the point: it isn't about whether or not Labour are wonderful and lovely. It's about the fact they are NOT the tories.
It's about getting this current lot, including the likes of IDS, out. Noone comes close to this guy for sheer bloody minded almost religious zealotry. if we manage to get him out then that alone is enough of a victory.
At the very least they have more wright of expectation than any other government if they get in. They have promised a repeal of the Bedroom Tax, whether or not you believe they will follow through, that's still more than you will get from the tories, which is who will win othereiwse.
Like it or not, Labour are the ONLY choice next year. The electoral system isn't going to change and while it might be a self fulfilling prophecy to say so, the Greens are too much of a gamble, even though i'd happily give them a chance.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics...n-benefits-means-testing-training-ed-miliband
Oh look, its by the Uber Blairite Wintour,who seems to relish writing about these 'reforms', cuts, etc.
65m is nothing, this is ideological
You're bending the knee and bearing your throat to the same politics that's already seen disabled people attacked and degraded, all on the chance that they'll say "sir" at the end of calling you a useless scrounging cunt.
No, that's just your bias speaking.
And frankly, your bias means fuck all when the culmination puts IDS back in charge knowing full well that's what's going to happen - unless of course you have abetter alternative than the childish defeatism i've heard so far.
EDIT: what I mean by bias is your bias against me. You are asserting that i am, at best, naive, about the politics of the labour party. That fact misses the point entirely. Its also completely incongruous with everything i have said and posted on this forum. If that is the logic you employ to respond, then don't bother.
You perceive this to be the case. It's what is known as "the triumph of hope over experience".
Except that, in all but name, in all the ways that really matter - in politics, in rhetoric, in intention, they're the same as the Tories.
And replaciing him with someone who's core policies will be the same as his, merely presented in a more people-friendly manner. We know this because Reeves has stated her intentions clearly and plainly - more of the same.
Unlike you, I don't believe that replacing an unpleasant megalomaniacal cunt with a smug deceptive cunt is a win for anyone.
Labour had a massive weight of expectation on them in '97, history shows us that they fulfilled about 5% of that expectation.
And while people say "Labour is the NLY choice next year. The electoral system isn't going to change...", nothing will change, because no message other than "we'll put up with just about any shit as long as it's not Tory shit, Ed", gets sent.
Because, of course, "vote Labour" isn't even akin to childish defeatism.
I'm asserting that you're naive, shading into wilfully-ignorant, not just about labour, but about politics as a whole.
I'm asserting that by saying "anything is better than IDS's boot on my neck", you're merely asking for another boot on your neck, and that Labour will be as happy to put their boot on your neck as the Tories were.
I'm asserting that our current system of representation is broken, and that effort would be better spent trying to do something about that, than punting a change of government as any kind of solution, or even as a respite.
I'm asserting that do-nothings like you will sit at home fiddling with yourselves as Rome burns, and then blame everyone except yourself when the flames start licking at your toes.
is voting sinn fein guaranteeing a tory win?My position is that: there are two outcomes next year Tory or Labour. There are no other outcomes. If you find labour objectionable, then by not voting you help to guarantee a Tory win.
I think my point was clearly explained, even for a simpleton like you.is voting sinn fein guaranteeing a tory win?
My position is that: there are two outcomes next year Tory or Labour. There are no other outcomes. If you find labour objectionable, then by not voting you help to guarantee a Tory win.
your point was clearly explained. but it's bollocks. not voting is not in all cases a vote for the tories. there are more than two possible outcomes to the election next year, and none of them are palatable. and frankly i'd rather have the genuine tories than some we're not really tory tories - the original is usually best. ideally, of course, we wouldn't have the red scum or the blue scum - nor, indeed, the yellow scum.I think my point was clearly explained, even for a simpleton like you.
I haven't said Labour will fix everything.
I have said that the chance they might just do one thing to help, such as repeal the BT, is enough to kick out the Tories.
And in so doing you are demonstrating your bias. My knowledge of politics as a whole is irrelevant to this discussion. Your constant attempts to appear as the Grand Meister with allthe secrets are really quite childish.
Now you are putting words in my mouth.
And I have repeatedly said the same thing. It's a pity you people don't read.
But we aren't going to get a better system in time for 2015.
Which is meaningless hyperbole and ad hom.
Could you explain why then the Electoral Reform Society concluded in a report that as few as 8000 swing voters in a handful of seats are the only ones out of 30 million voters whose vote actually effects the outcome. Why nearly 400 of 600 seats are safe seats that will not change hands no matter what? And what that means for your argument that every vote counts? Because i think it blows it out of the water frankly.
There is that.I'm in a very safe Labour seat. By not voting, or not voting Labour, I do fuck all for a Tory win.
I'm in a very safe Labour seat. By not voting, or not voting Labour, I do fuck all for a Tory win.
Not directly, no.Which makes it fortunate that I haven't claimed anything of the sort, does it not?
You've also written a load of cant about how getting IDS out is imperative.
As has been said by others and myself elsewhere, the Bedroom Tax is a busted flush. Regardless of who is in power, it'll be gone in a year or so, having done its' job.
Except that I'm not making any such "attempts", I'm merely speaking from a perspective that includes studying and trying to learn from the past.
And your knowledge of politics is precisely relevant, in that informs your perspective.
I haven't contradicted myself in this discussion. I'm sure i have done so in other discussion i have participated in, here and elswhere. I don't contend to be infallible any more than I contend to be 100% correct 100% of the time. So what? All I see here are more ad hominems in place of an argument.That you see contradiction of your opinions in the light you invariably do (and I'm talking contradiction in general, not just my contradictions) as posturing (or harrassment, or what-fucking-ever) rather than as critique, signals...well, I won't analyse you publicly.
No, I'm not, I've condensed and am paraphrasing your own posts.
You haven't said the same thing, not even close. You've said that something should be done within the system, which kind of misses the point that the system survives through minimal concession.
And "you people"? There's only one of me.
So let's not bother, eh? let's just let everything carry on as it is, towards what at best will be a neo-Victorian nightmare realm.
It'd only be hyperbole if it didn't reflect the gist of your posts here. It'd only be an ad hominem if it didn't reflect the gist of your posts here.
This. Although, I'd probably vote hard left / NHS action or whatever if it was an option.Same here. Same for so many of us.
In my opinion, the only action we have left to us, given being in safe Labour constituencies, is to withdraw our support, and the way to withdraw support isn't to place our votes elsewhere, it's to boycott the process, and make it clear why we're doing so.
As with consenting to being governed, our consent to be represented is:
a) taken for granted by our "representatives", and
b) contingent on our allowing ourselves to be used as a cock-sock by those "representatives".
Remove that consent, and the claimed mandate of these political vampires disappears into the aether.
As has been said by others and myself elsewhere, the Bedroom Tax is a busted flush. Regardless of who is in power, it'll be gone in a year or so, having done its' job.
What, how? (I don't know how candidate selection for councillors works TBF.) Filthy bastards.was talking to my dad yesterday. he's life long labour, union rep in the factories and warehouses he's worked in, always goes to labour, union, co-op conferences and is out and about every election. has been a councillor previously and god knows how many tens of thousands of hours of his life he's given to the party. anyway he wanted to put his name forward for nomination to stand for councillor again at the next local election but some regional full timer is essentially trying to make it impossible for him to stand again. apparently they are really keen to make sure that no 'union people' are allowed to be candidates - they want all candidates to be from the professional middle clas. to say he's annoyed is putting it mildly!
of course i don't think it's surprising to many people here but i've never known him so disillusioned
Then if the only difference is IDS is not in charge that itself, while I grant isn't ideal, is better than nothing.
Oh i get it, I just don't agree.It's not better than nothing, just a different shade of nothing. Vote for these cunts so these other cunts don't win. They are the same cunts, the same class, same minority interest of privilege. This is the easiest bit to get, even a simpleton like me gets it.
Oh i get it, I just don't agree.
What do you get and what don't you agree with?Oh i get it, I just don't agree.
It.What do you get and what don't you agree with?
My position has been made clear I think.Is that it?