Why do we believe lies?

[weltweit]

I listened to an interesting podcast from Bill Gates and Rashida Jones and Yuval Noah Harari about the human condition.

Why do we believe lies? | Bill Gates (gatesnotes.com)

Only one animal, humans, knows about the existence of Denmark!

A Orang-Utan will never grasp that Microsoft is a thing. If you showed the Orang-Utan a Microsoft building it would realise it was a building but it wouldn't be able to grasp that the building was part of a larger Microsoft company with a history and a mission.

Humans, we believe in stories, we believe in concepts and constructs, we can believe in lies.

 

[weltweit]

They touched on religion, that for example the Popes are probably not lying in the instructions they give to their followers, the Popes probably believe what they are saying is truth, however for non believers like me religion is a big lie, and one that has convinced millions of followers.

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

Why that spelling of Orangutan?

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Are stories lies though?

 

[keybored]

Almost like humans have some kind of true language to express things.

 

[weltweit]

Why that spelling of Orangutan?

I wondered as I typed it if it was wrong

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Stories are maybe one of the things (as opposed to facts) that sets us apart from animals.

Not much else does: language, culture, memory, tools: all these are common to animals and humans. They are the means of transmission of information.

Stories though, that's the transmission of imagination and thought. What we came uo with on our own.

But where lies the line between stories that are universally meaningful, and stories that serve the individual? That's probably the boundary that defines where lies begin.

Lies, lying, has a moral component: trickery, manipulation, coercion, all that, rather than the realm of story, which is sharing thoughts and feelings.

Metaphor, simile, analogy, the mechanics of storytelling: that's okay because it's rooted in something deep, something that feels true and honest.

Lying is when you're doing those same things in order to achieve some end game.

 

[weltweit]

Are stories lies though?

Not all of them certainly - but some can be, and as stories they can be persuasive.

I wonder how many Nazis believed they were indeed a superior race?

And how many people take the Bible stories as being truth?

 

[Humberto]

the bible stories are truth

 

[weltweit]

..
Lying is when you're doing those same things in order to achieve some end game.

I believe Gates feels Trump and Religion are about current big and persuasive lies - he didn't actually say in so many words but that was a feeling I got. Religion and Trump have end games.

 

[weltweit]

the bible stories are truth

 

[Humberto]

"At his best, man is the noblest of all animals; separated from law and justice he is the worst."

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Not all of them certainly - but some can be, and as stories they can be persuasive.

I wonder how many Nazis believed they were indeed a superior race?

And how many people take the Bible stories as being truth?

The Nazi thing: i think we're seeing something disturbingly similar - or comparable - with this current Trump stuff. The ability to...the compulsion to ...persuade oneself ... to gulp down like too hot hot chocolate, that this, rather than -that-, is the Truth.

 

[weltweit]

I particularly like the concept that only one animal knows of the existence of Denmark. Denmark is a construct produced by humans to make it easier to organise the language lives and culture of the people in that European region within specific boundaries. Occupants have to learn that story to understand how they relate to their neighbours and the wider world.

Perhaps, well, would a troupe of Chimps have similar concepts without specifically knowing about Demark? Perhaps they have similar, in fact probably they do.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

"At his best, man is the noblest of all animals; separated from law and justice he is the worst."

Old news. But scary that it's still true

 

[SheilaNaGig]

I particularly like the concept that only one animal knows of the existence of Denmark. Denmark is a construct produced by humans to make it easier to organise the language lives and culture of the people in that European region within specific boundaries. Occupants have to learn that story to understand how they relate to their neighbours and the wider world.

Perhaps, well, would a troupe of Chimps have similar concepts without specifically knowing about Demark? Perhaps they have similar.

Why Denmark rather than... Oh, I don't know, Finland, which famously doesn't exist at all

 

[SheilaNaGig]

I particularly like the concept that only one animal knows of the existence of Denmark. Denmark is a construct produced by humans to make it easier to organise the language lives and culture of the people in that European region within specific boundaries. Occupants have to learn that story to understand how they relate to their neighbours and the wider world.

Perhaps, well, would a troupe of Chimps have similar concepts without specifically knowing about Demark? Perhaps they have similar, in fact probably they do.

Although this is also true of any "country"

 

[Jay Park]

"At his best, man is the noblest of all animals; separated from law and justice he is the worst."

who decides law, and who decides justice ?

for how long has the modern world lived under the lie of capitalism ?

and before that, what ? What lies were we told and did we tell ourselves in order to survive ?

what lies do we tell ourselves to survive now, or do we defer from concentrating on what may be forthcoming ? We live in the now, gratification, again capitalism and it’s mechanisms.

I got an (edited) accusation off the Big A for living in a fantasy world. Well aren’t we fucking all to a certain extent ? Otherwise many of us couldn’t cope with the reality around us.

 

[weltweit]

Why Denmark rather than... Oh, I don't know, Finland, which famously doesn't exist at all

Denmark was mentioned on Gates' blog about the podcast.

Take Denmark, for example. No animal on Earth knows that Denmark exists other than humans. Denmark—like all other countries, including the United States—is an elaborate myth that we have collectively decided to believe. But this myth enables Danes to organize a society that provides benefits to its people.

However I am disputing this now because other animals create societies and boundaries and pecking orders etc etc .. their own Denmark.

 

[Humberto]

who decides law, and who decides justice ?

for how long has the modern world lived under the lie of capitalism ?

and before that, what ? What lies were we told and did we tell ourselves in order to survive ?

what lies do we tell ourselves to survive now, or do we defer from concentrating on what may be forthcoming ? We live in the now, gratification, again capitalism and it’s mechanisms.

I got an (edited) accusation off the Big A for living in a fantasy world. Well aren’t we fucking all to a certain extent ? Otherwise many of us couldn’t cope with the reality around us.

I think it holds true.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

who decides law, and who decides justice ?

for how long has the modern world lived under the lie of capitalism ?

and before that, what ? What lies were we told and did we tell ourselves in order to survive ?

what lies do we tell ourselves to survive now, or do we defer from concentrating on what may be forthcoming ? We live in the now, gratification, again capitalism and it’s mechanisms.

I got an (edited) accusation off the Big A for living in a fantasy world. Well aren’t we fucking all to a certain extent ? Otherwise many of us couldn’t cope with the reality around us.

Nietzsche

etc

 

[Jay Park]

Lies, lying, has a moral component: trickery, manipulation, coercion, all that, rather than the realm of story, which is sharing thoughts and feelings.

Metaphor, simile, analogy, the mechanics of storytelling: that's okay because it's rooted in something deep, something that feels true and honest.

I think neither of the characterisations put forward here are mutually exclusive. Need I say that people often lie, sometimes several times daily, to make people feel better.

And the usage of idioms and metaphors - especially in British culture - are used to take the piss out of folk. Whether it’s true/honest/or something as trivial as superficialities, they are regularly employed as a form of one-upmanship. Look at some of the people here on our online progressive home.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Denmark was mentioned on Gates' blog about the podcast.



However I am disputing this now because other animals create societies and boundaries and pecking orders etc etc .. their own Denmark.

So "denmark" is a convenient simile?

((Denmark))



Yes, they do. (not all but a significant number of ) Animal species have most (all?) of the things humans do in terms of culture .

 

[weltweit]

I think neither of the characterisations put forward here are mutually exclusive. Need I say that people often lie, sometimes several times daily, to make people feel better.

Yes they do. My mother thought of herself as very honest but she was also very tactful, and a tactful answer to a question is not wholly honest.

On your second point, we all wear uniforms according to our believed position in our societies, and the uniformity extends to our use of particular language.

 

[Jay Park]

I think it holds true.

we are constantly separated from law and justice, just look around you. By their very definition they are abstract concepts. Abstract to the point where they are seemingly unobtainable

you tell me there’s justice in an 80 year old with a crooked back picking up a strewn cigarette of a 25 year old trust fund baby?

I got off from having a throw down with the Bizzies cos of my wife’s job and educational background, without that social capital I’d have been done... That isn’t justice. Nor is it law and nor is it order. Fucking threatening me with a tazer and 3 batons.

 

[Jay Park]

Yes they do. My mother thought of herself as very honest but she was also very tactful, and a tactful answer to a question is not wholly honest.

On your second point, we all wear uniforms according to our believed position in our societies, and the uniformity extends to our use of particular language.

my Grandmother too, she was honest to the point of appalling impertinence, but she knew when you needed to be told what you wanted to hear.

 

[Humberto]

read the quote again dumbski

 

[Jay Park]

read the quote again dumbski

I thought we might get through a bit of discourse without resorting to... whatever one might call that insult. Alas. Again, I’ve lied to myself.

 

[Humberto]

He's dangerous

 

[weltweit]

While there is fiction and lies and misinformation, there are also facts, things that are demonstrably true.