Why did Rooney play so badly in South Africa?

[London_Calling]

I agree with that analysis, L_C, but then the question becomes: should the team have been set up for him?

There's nothing wrong with setting up a team around the strengths of your best player, imo. Chelsea regularly do it around Drogba and it seems to work ok.

Telling Gerrard he has to play to Rooney strengths is one thing, he'll still ignore you even if your name is Capello.

So your framework collapses - for example, you may have 4 midfielders in a square dance formation 2/3 up the pitch, no width, no options, no momentum. It's the Little Big Horn.

Not any kind of 'team'.

 

[Proper Tidy]

I think it is mostly that England just aren't as good as they're cracked up to be. You'd think after continually flopping for several decades the penny might drop but alas not. We live in hope.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I agree with your first point, but we did beat slovenia. Algeria on par with ukraine? I dont think so....

IMO, the performance against Algeria was the worst of the four, and maybe you're right – but it's hard to compare. Algeria were toothless up front but composed in possession (more composed than sorry England) – a different kind of team from Ukraine.


They beat Slovenia, yes. If Lampard's goal had counted, who knows – the Germans were very shaky at the start of the second half.

I'm not saying England deserved to beat Germany. They clearly didn't, but the vagaries of football played their part as they could have done in qualifying...

 

[twistedAM]

Simple: he's got a 16-year old sister

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Telling Gerrard he has to play to Rooney strengths is one thing, he'll still ignore you even if your name is Capello.

So your framework collapses - for example, you may have 4 midfielders in a square dance formation 2/3 up the pitch, no width, no options, no momentum. It's the Little Big Horn.

Not any kind of 'team'.

Maybe. I'm coming round to your opinion of Gerrard, btw. His performance second half was beyond woeful. He squandered possession every single time he was given the ball in a promising position, usually with absurd attempts at goal. It was deflating to watch.

 

[weltweit]

Everyone's a manager

Grin, yes they are ... If the 20 year old I work with was england manager you can be sure we would win the whole thing, so sure of himself is he!

Maybe. I'm coming round to your opinion of Gerrard, btw. His performance second half was beyond woeful. He squandered possession every single time he was given the ball in a promising position, usually with absurd attempts at goal. It was deflating to watch.

Yes, I saw that. Lots of shots from distance where something more creative could have been made of the circs!

 

[ericjarvis]

midfield din't really perform which leaves rooney with difficulties, also he clearly cares more about man united then england for whatever reason.


dave

I don't think so. In my opinion his problem wasn't that he cared too little, it was that he was trying too hard to be a hero, and not concentrating on playing as part of a team. When Rooney is at his best for Man Uted he makes space for other players by dragging his markers around. For England he stayed central far too much for that to happen. Which increased his chances of being able to do something with the minimal service the strikers were getting, but reduced the chances of his strike partners being effective, and left no space for Lampard and Gerrard to come forward.

What worries me about most of the post world cup discussion is that it seems to be based on the idea that the solution to England's problems is players playing with more effort, when actually the real problem that England had was players playing with a lack of intelligence.

Personally I'd have dropped Rooney for the second group game to try to take the pressure off him. Of course I'd have then been sacked if England didn't completely roll over the USA, unless Rooney completely tore Slovenia apart. Which is probably why Capello didn't do it. He's no idiot, and I'm pretty sure he realises that there's a limit to hiow far he can vary from the team the media would pick without being torn apart in the press.

It's a nice easy idea. They all get paid too much and they don't care. It means being able to blame the players without having to do any tedious thinking. Most of all it means not having to accept that there may be some things the Spanish, Dutch, and Germans are doing that we are doing wrong.

 

[London Eye]

What defined England's qualifying campaign for me was the interchange of passing between Rooney and Gerrard. When the likes of Harry Redknapp said Gerrard was playing out of position, Gerrard showed that it could be done.

There was absolutely none of that interchange between them. And formations do not explain why. Maybe both Gerrard and Rooney stood against Terry.

Even so, I can't believe that dressing room bust-up would make them play so badly.

But then look at Holland in tournaments past.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yes, the pay thing is a red herring. Virtually every single player left in the quarter finals earns tons of money.

 

[London_Calling]

Maybe. I'm coming round to your opinion of Gerrard, btw. His performance second half was beyond woeful. He squandered possession every single time he was given the ball in a promising position, usually with absurd attempts at goal. It was deflating to watch.

Fwiw, I think it's even worse when you look around the pitch at the consequences of someone not playing to a team plan i.e. off the ball.

All the team have to ask themselves 'ok what do I do now' when the option isn't there or their own space is invaded or their options are skewed by someone in the way of their options . . the concertina effect forces players into unfamiliar and unsafe options, they have to think so much more. There's no natural flow . . . I have to stop this.

 

[passenger]

Simple: he's got a 16-year old sister

ha ha he he.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

In a word: fluidity. The antithesis of Holland's total football of the 70s.

I know they were stuffed by Brazil, but I really liked the way Chile operated, constantly moving off the ball. More of that please.

 

[London_Calling]

Just make a final point before my head explodes again; every single German player knew what his options would be the second he got possession, of course he knows, they're always there. Contrast with the disaster in the England midfield.

 

[toblerone3]

Yes, the pay thing is a red herring. Virtually every single player left in the quarter finals earns tons of money.

Yes Phil Dwyer's comments on this on another thread were a pile of rubbish IMHO

 

[marshall]

New baby, bit homesick, didn't like being away from home for so long; can't imagine him ever signing for a foreign club and being a success.

 

[weltweit]

Just make a final point before my head explodes again; every single German player knew what his options would be the second he got possession, of course he knows, they're always there. Contrast with the disaster in the England midfield.

Yes, Germany looked like they knew what they were doing.

And at the front, they passed into space and ran on to it, devastating a number of times. We didn't do that once in their end.

I said to a German contact yesterday "unfortunately the best team won!"

 

[rorymac]

I hope he appreciated that mate !

 

[sleaterkinney]

He was up to No Good off the pitch

I think the lack of action is why he underperformed, maybe get a few grannies out there next time?

 

[Obnoxiousness]

England failed, and Rooney could only stand there and watch.

 

[Maggot]

My honest opinion for the whole sorry tale was they just werent happy at the disciplined way Capello demands his team to to behave. They may agree to a couple of days but a few weeks? What else has changed since the qualification period?

This is a very good point. The players could put up with Capello's strict ways for a few days at a time, but not for a longer period. This could also explain why Terry publicly disagreed with Capello.

 

[TrippyLondoner]

This is a very good point. The players could put up with Capello's strict ways for a few days at a time, but not for a longer period. This could also explain why Terry publicly disagreed with Capello.

You could be right...

 

[bigbry]

midfield din't really perform which leaves rooney with difficulties, also he clearly cares more about man united then england for whatever reason.

They pay his wages ? England don't.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

But this wages thing is true about every player. I don't believe it for one second. The World Cup is about glory, not money, and I'm sure every single player would trade a year's wages for the glory of winning it.

 

[kabbes]

I just don't think Rooney is anywhere near as good as he is made out to be by an overexcited English media. He's a really good player but if he wasn't English, he wouldn't get a quarter of the plaudits that he does.

 

[Jorum]

Someone told me this morning there is a rumour in certain circles about there having been massive scandal in the England camp - a player sleeping with a prostitute, one sleeping with an underage girl, and a player slept with a another players sister in law, and Terry was pissed that he was stripped of captaincy for shagging around while others haven't been punished.
It further states there is a reporting injuction for period of the world cup.

It sounds too big and sensationalist to be true tbh, especially given the UKs exceptional record on completely bullshit stories.

 

[The Octagon]

I just don't think Rooney is anywhere near as good as he is made out to be by an overexcited English media. He's a really good player but if he wasn't English, he wouldn't get a quarter of the plaudits that he does.

I can't agree with that, I actually think it's the other way round. If he was Brazilian / Spanish everyone would be furiously wanking over him as a 'little genius' (figuratively of course ).

 

[T & P]

Rooney is a lot better than he showed to be on the World Cup of course, but claims that he's the best striker in the world or even in the same league as Messi and Ronaldo are, frankly, laughable.

More of the same overhype surrounding anything English the the tabloid press and cluess pundits keep on pushing, which invariably leads to disappointment when things play out as they invariably were always going to.

 

[TrippyLondoner]

Ronaldo didn't have the best tournament either, does that mean he's 'overhyped'?

 

[caballero]

Rooney is a lot better than he showed to be on the World Cup of course, but claims that he's the best striker in the world or even in the same league as Messi and Ronaldo are, frankly, laughable.

More of the same overhype surrounding anything English the the tabloid press and cluess pundits keep on pushing, which invariably leads to disappointment when things play out as they invariably were always going to.

But you can't compare Rooney with Messi or Ronaldo, they're completely different players. Rooney in my opinion is a better all round player than than Ronaldo and Messi, but obviously can't run at players in the same way Ronaldo and Messi and hasn't quite got the same "Magic" those two have.

I'll admit, the English media do not help things in any way. The Germans are just laughing at the way our media bigs up our team to high heaven then shoots them down with such venom when things go even slightly wrong. Something needs to change in that respect, but the English Media has far to much power for me to ever see that changing...

However much the players say they don't listen to the media, it must always be in the back of their minds what's gonna happen if things don't go right.

 

[TrippyLondoner]

We should just go into every tournament depressed as hell with no excitement at all.