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Where now for the anti-cuts movement?

Streathamite said:
No-one - not belboid, not anybody - 'makes you have to repeat yourself' - you do it of your own free choice, and you seem to do it because you think the U75 'world' is waiting with baited breath to hear the latest nugget of earth-shaking wisdom to come from you.
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No more so than the likes of you seem to think the world is awaiting your (mostly moronic) daily pronouncements.
 
Streathamite said:
You can be optimistic, and committed to activism, and still listen to serious criticisms: in fact, far from being mutually exclusive, it's essential we do both. I am also convinced people, more than some may think, are on our side, simply becuase these cuts hit so many people, so hard.
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yeah.

people might of disagreed with me at work (not that i tend to get in political arguements very often) but im known as a bit of a leftie and nobody has ever, ever had a go at me about it. when i tell people what i'm doing their reaction is mostly, "good on you". other stuff maybe, but not that. and according to some people half of the people i work with would theoretically hate me.
 
Streathamite said:
You can be optimistic, and committed to activism, and still listen to serious criticisms: in fact, far from being mutually exclusive, it's essential we do both. I am also convinced people, more than some may think, are on our side, simply becuase these cuts hit so many people, so hard.
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Show me where I say you can't do both. There's a good chap.
 
nino_savatte said:
It took the Suffragette movement decades to achieve voting rights for women. It took decades for the civil rights movement in the US to achieve equal rights for blacks. If those activists had given up simply because they didn't achieve immediate success, then women wouldn't have the vote and Jim Crow would still be riding tall in the saddle.
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True, but so what? There are no parallels between those movements and what we're talking about here.
 
I'm hoping the anti-cuts movement will form a big part of the Real Democracy Now movement which appears to be springing up.
 
Partly because there's such disunity in the anti-cuts movement as to what should be fougt for anyway ...
 
LLETSA said:
True, but so what? There are no parallels between those movements and what we're talking about here.
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"No parallels"? Would you care to expand on that?

Are you suggesting that the anti-cuts movements and the others that I mentioned weren't involved in affecting social and political changes?
 
nino_savatte said:
"No parallels"? Would you care to expand on that?
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They are single issue movements with aims achievable within the existing order of things. What we are ultimately arguing about here (or at least some of us are) are the possibilities for a different kind of system, against a backdrop of probably the most unfavourable conditions for at least a century.
 
LLETSA said:
No more so than the likes of you seem to think the world is awaiting your (mostly moronic) daily pronouncements.
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Oh what a surprise, the world's most predictable poster instinctively slips into sneer mode.
anyone care to lay bets on when cap'n scratched record says something useful, insightful or surprising? :rolleyes:
 
LLETSA said:
They are single issue movements with aims achievable within the existing order of things. What we are ultimately arguing about here (or at least some of us are) are the possibilities for a different kind of system, against a backdrop of probably the most unfavourable conditions for at least a century.
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So does that make their contributions less valuable as movements for social and political change because they aren't officially part of an orthodoxy?
 
LLETSA said:
They are single issue movements with aims achievable within the existing order of things. What we are ultimately arguing about here (or at least some of us are) are the possibilities for a different kind of system, against a backdrop of probably the most unfavourable conditions for at least a century.
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I don't disagree with you there but I would also add to that that it's different in that it's trying to preserve the sort of "good" parts of the existing system in the face of a tidal wave of attacks against them. And on that front at least it has had some successes - albeit limited and often cosmetic - no?

I think it would be difficult for politicians to get people to accept a return to 19th century conditions and living standards with or without the existence of the various socialist groups and the anti-cuts movement ... yet, imo, that's what they're aiming to do, and i think that they won't , ultimately, succeed
 
LLETSA said:
They are single issue movements with aims achievable within the existing order of things. What we are ultimately arguing about here (or at least some of us are) are the possibilities for a different kind of system, against a backdrop of probably the most unfavourable conditions for at least a century.
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actually, I take part of my last post back - that's quite a good point.
Still doesn't affect the issue of people fighting to protect and advance their most fundamental interests, which i think they will, and you seem to think they won't
 
frogwoman said:
as always Lletsa brings up some good points even if they do make uncnomfortable reading. where i can't agree with him tho is the idea that everything is fucked. i think that there is a much wider awareness of the situation and the idea that these cuts etc have to be stopped, from a year ago. and a lot more different and wider range of people willing to get involved in stuff. i'd go along with butchers' post, as well. just because theres less activity now doesn't mean it can't come back.

i think relentless optimism does have its place but that doesn't mean that we can't criticise or point to strategies that are going to be counterproductive - and two mutually opposed positions can be correct / icorrect at the same time in different contexts and situations
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I haven't said anywhere that 'Everything is fucked.' Everything in what sense? People who think I'm saying anything as simplistic as that are merely reacting emotionally because they feel, despite the bluster, politically impotent.

There is indeed a widespread desire to stop the cuts, but what's lacking is a political force to back it up. So eveything is reliant, as usual on Labour, and we already know what the result of that would be. Aside from that, there might be some small, temporary victories. If we're lucky. And this is the case no matter how many people get involved in the anti-cuts movement(s).
 
What do people think would be the effect of wiping out all national debt, around the world, in one swoop?
 
An archetypal Headless Chicken said:
no dear, you do it because you are incapable of actual thought, and are desperate for an excuse to justify your arse sitting. but hey ho.
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I don't think what I'm saying is particularly insightful, nor have I said that what individuals are doing is pointless (quote me if I have). Individuals, after all, are only working from ingrained habit with the only materials to hand.

The thoroughly emotional response to anything mildy critical of business as usual, or to anything that says the outlook is less than rosy, from middle-aged and elderly men like Belboid, Streathamite and Nino et al is particularly telling.
 
Streathamite said:
Oh what a surprise, the world's most predictable poster instinctively slips into sneer mode.
anyone care to lay bets on when cap'n scratched record says something useful, insightful or surprising? :rolleyes:
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As if you haven't been sneering. or repeating yourself. As I said yesterday, are you really as stupid as you seem with your 'Yes you did say that, no I didn't' obsessions? Have the drugs addled your brain? Christ, no wonder you've 30000 posts to your name.
 
frogwoman said:
I don't disagree with you there but I would also add to that that it's different in that it's trying to preserve the sort of "good" parts of the existing system in the face of a tidal wave of attacks against them. And on that front at least it has had some successes - albeit limited and often cosmetic - no?

I think it would be difficult for politicians to get people to accept a return to 19th century conditions and living standards with or without the existence of the various socialist groups and the anti-cuts movement ... yet, imo, that's what they're aiming to do, and i think that they won't , ultimately, succeed
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Of course it's better to have some opposition than none. But as we've seen over the past few decades, the 'good parts of the existing system' can and have been steadily and deliberately eroded by capital. During this time, opposition has also dwindled. There is no sign of this process going into reverse; quite the opposite.
 
Streathamite said:
actually, I take part of my last post back - that's quite a good point.
Still doesn't affect the issue of people fighting to protect and advance their most fundamental interests, which i think they will, and you seem to think they won't
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Again, quote the bit where I've said they won't. People clearly will. But not enough people will, and there's no political force to back them up.
 
nino_savatte said:
You're not as bright as you think you are, LLETSA.

Have you got a problem with education, erudition and learning?
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I've no problem with it. But you display the academic trait of wilful obfuscation and over-estimation of you own intellectual abilities.
 
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