Where now for the anti-cuts movement?

[LLETSA]

That's clicheed bollocks. Pessimists seal their own fate. They miss out on opportunities to make their world better cos no one in their right mind would want a 'can't be doner' anywhere near anything that matters.

Avoid like the plague. They drain morale and eat time and deter others from getting involved. Embittered types get the solo roles. And rightly so. They're hell to work with.

Some might do. But no two pessimists are the same. I'm not telling anybody not to do anything and I'm not detering anybody from getting in involved in whatever they want either. As I seem to have to continually repeat. Nor do I think things can't be made better. History has proved time and time again that they can. But you have to distinguish between situations where those who wanted what most on here would regard as positive change were in the ascendency, and situations where they're not. We have been in the latter situation for a long time. Personally, I think it's a terminal decline and 'the left' and the working class movement is now doomed to forever fight defensive battles (I also concede that I might be wrong, but I doubt it.)

Being pessimistic, especially about things which are beyond your control, doesn't mean you're embittered. I've known a few embittered politicos who cling on to their political optimism with little or no recognition that what's embittered them is reality letting them down time and time again. (It always will-and that applies to all of us, no matter what your political outlook.) Optimists do have their place, but all that the head-in-the-sand political optimism on display on here will result in is more disappointment due to highly unfavourable wider circumstances that none of us, pessimistic or not, can do anything about. Yes, there is plenty going on, and, yes, plenty of people are angry, but there will be no political breakthroughs, hence what few victories there might be will be only temporary and of a purely defensive nature. Few people will recognise it however, which is why they're doomed to make the same mistakes over and over.

Anyway, you just carry on with what you're doing. Don't let me stop you.

 

[nino_savatte]

Every time anybody says anything that smacks of reality, we get Private Fraser. And you say I'm boring.

"Reality"? Please explain what you mean by "reality".

 

[LLETSA]

"Reality"? Please explain what you mean by "reality".

Why doesn't it surprise me that you don't know?

What I mean is the refusal of the world (or people or society, or whatever you want) to fall into line with a set of political perspectives. Which is why 'the left' is always in the process of having a rethink (within, of course, the same rigid parameters). It always will be. And the result will always be similar to what's gone before.

But it doesn't only apply to lefties.

 

[nino_savatte]

Why doesn't it surprise me that you don't know?

What I mean is the refusal of the world (or people or society, or whatever you want) to fall into line with a set of political perspectives. Which is why 'the left' is always in the process of having a rethink (within, of course, the same rigid parameters). It always will be. And the result will always be similar to what's gone before.

But it doesn't only apply to lefties.

Of course, I forget, you are incapable of critical thinking. I guess, in your case, philosophy is only for people with French surnames.

You're suggesting that you have a monopoly on reality. You don't. You're an ascetic, aren't you?

 

[_angel_]

Of course, I forget, you are incapable of critical thinking. I guess, in your case, philosophy is only for people with French surnames.

You're suggesting that you have a monopoly on reality. You don't. You're a bit of an ascetic, aren't you?

Go on, add a French phrase, you know you want to.

 

[love detective]

even better, some latin in italics

BAM!

 

[nino_savatte]

even better, some latin in italics

BAM!

Why? Do you have some kind of fetish?

 

[love detective]

it's generally what smug pompous pricks like you do to show how clever you are

 

[LLETSA]

Of course, I forget, you are incapable of critical thinking. I guess, in your case, philosophy is only for people with French surnames.

You're suggesting that you have a monopoly on reality. You don't. You're an ascetic, aren't you?

Why am I an ascetic? It in no way follows from what I've said that I should be.

Have I suggested I have a monopoly on anything? If so, where?

I notice that you don't spell out why I'm wrong while you're wittering about philosophy and critical thinking. (Critical thinking from the one of those guilty of pushing the same stale old bullshit no matter what the circumstances!)

 

[nino_savatte]

Why am I an ascetic? It in no way follows from what I've said that I should be.

Have I suggested I have a monopoly on anything? If so, where?

I notice that you don't spell out why I'm wrong while you're wittering about philosophy and critical thinking. (Critical thinking from the one of those guilty of pushing the same stale old bullshit no matter what the circumstances.)

You seem to think that it is only you who understands what the word "reality" means.

Every time anybody says anything that smacks of reality, we get Private Fraser. And you say I'm boring.

So what is this "reality" that you're talking about?

 

[LLETSA]

You seem to think that it is only you who understands what the word "reality" means.

Did I say I am? If so, where?

 

[nino_savatte]

it's generally what smug pompous pricks like you do to show how clever you are

What? Smug pricks like you, you mean? You seem to have set yourself up as some kind of (plastic) political guru. Glasshouses and stones, chum.

Oh and you're a hypocrite.

 

[nino_savatte]

Did I say I am? If so, where?

Playing the innocent now. How fucking typically dishonest of you.

 

[LLETSA]

Playing the innocent now. How fucking typically dishonest of you.

I gave an opinion and defended it. Instead of telling me exactly why I'm wrong, you bullshit about philosophy, pin a silly label on somebody you can never know personally, and (as do so many others on here) focus on my supposed personal flaws.

 

[love detective]

What? Smug pricks like you, you mean? You seem to have set yourself up as some kind of (plastic) political guru. Glasshouses and stones, chum.

Oh and you're a hypocrite.

Takes one to know one nino (I get by without the italics though)

As your last few posts show - you seem incapable of doing anything but frothing around throwing out unbacked up assertions that contain no relevance to what you're supposedly responding to - you're a dull tedious prick that's in love with yourself

 

[belboid]

anyway..... the anti-cuts movement...??

 

[TruXta]

anyway..... the anti-cuts movement...??

... is fucked.

 

[belboid]

oh right, may as well not bother then. Just go down the pub n forget about it...

 

[TruXta]

oh right, may as well not bother then. Just go down the pub n forget about it...

That's the spirit.

 

[frogwoman]

as always Lletsa brings up some good points even if they do make uncnomfortable reading. where i can't agree with him tho is the idea that everything is fucked. i think that there is a much wider awareness of the situation and the idea that these cuts etc have to be stopped, from a year ago. and a lot more different and wider range of people willing to get involved in stuff. i'd go along with butchers' post, as well. just because theres less activity now doesn't mean it can't come back.

i think relentless optimism does have its place but that doesn't mean that we can't criticise or point to strategies that are going to be counterproductive - and two mutually opposed positions can be correct / icorrect at the same time in different contexts and situations

 

[nino_savatte]

as always Lletsa brings up some good points even if they do make uncnomfortable reading. where i can't agree with him tho is the idea that everything is fucked. i think that there is a much wider awareness of the situation and the idea that these cuts etc have to be stopped, from a year ago. and a lot more different and wider range of people willing to get involved in stuff. i'd go along with butchers' post, as well. just because theres less activity now doesn't mean it can't come back.

i think relentless optimism does have its place but that doesn't mean that we can't criticise or point to strategies that are going to be counterproductive - and two mutually opposed positions can be correct / icorrect at the same time in different contexts and situations

Exactly. If you go around all the time thinking that there is nothing we can do and it's all fucked, then we may as well just commit suicide en masse (Kool-Aid stylee). The only reason I challenged him on his use of the word "reality" was because he seemed to be implying that he was the only one who had a grasp of reality. But the word reality is a little like the word "normal". It means something different to each and everyone of us.

 

[belboid]

as always Lletsa brings up some good points

thing is, he only ever brings up one point, aleways thinks it brilliantly insightful and utterly different to what anyone else is saying, and trumps the lot. And then usesw it as an excuse to go 'you're wasting your time'. It is a reactionary premeditated acceptance of defeat, a stratgey that is wonderfully self-fulfilling and that can only ever lead to more gloom.

 

[frogwoman]

On the other hand if you ignore serious criticisms you are settign yourself up for a failure time and time again, but I don't think *that* many people are doing that.

I seriously don't think that the anti-cuts stuff is "wasting our time". Even if it doesn't succeed this time. One day it will, the gov't have already had to backtrack (or seem to backtrack) on loads of stuff including NHS reforms etc and the effect that i've seen at work and with my friends etc and the sort of response we get while out leafletting demonstrates that people carea lot more about this sort of stuff and are alot more aware of it than a lot of people imagine.

 

[LLETSA]

thing is, he only ever brings up one point, aleways thinks it brilliantly insightful and utterly different to what anyone else is saying, and trumps the lot. And then usesw it as an excuse to go 'you're wasting your time'. It is a reactionary premeditated acceptance of defeat, a stratgey that is wonderfully self-fulfilling and that can only ever lead to more gloom.

Belboid is precisely the kind of idiot who makes me have to repeat myself.

What can you do with these people? As if it's all about people spreading gloom.

 

[belboid]

no dear, you do it because you are incapable of actual thought, and are desperate for an excuse to justify your arse sitting. but hey ho.

 

[nino_savatte]

It took the Suffragette movement decades to achieve voting rights for women. It took decades for the civil rights movement in the US to achieve equal rights for blacks. If those activists had given up simply because they didn't achieve immediate success, then women wouldn't have the vote and Jim Crow would still be riding tall in the saddle.

 

[Streathamite]

thing is, he only ever brings up one point, aleways thinks it brilliantly insightful and utterly different to what anyone else is saying, and trumps the lot. And then usesw it as an excuse to go 'you're wasting your time'. It is a reactionary premeditated acceptance of defeat, a stratgey that is wonderfully self-fulfilling and that can only ever lead to more gloom.

Quite.

 

[Streathamite]

On the other hand if you ignore serious criticisms you are settign yourself up for a failure time and time again, but I don't think *that* many people are doing that.

I seriously don't think that the anti-cuts stuff is "wasting our time". Even if it doesn't succeed this time. One day it will, the gov't have already had to backtrack (or seem to backtrack) on loads of stuff including NHS reforms etc and the effect that i've seen at work and with my friends etc and the sort of response we get while out leafletting demonstrates that people carea lot more about this sort of stuff and are alot more aware of it than a lot of people imagine.

You can be optimistic, and committed to activism, and still listen to serious criticisms: in fact, far from being mutually exclusive, it's essential we do both. I am also convinced people, more than some may think, are on our side, simply becuase these cuts hit so many people, so hard.

 

[Streathamite]

Belboid is precisely the kind of idiot who makes me have to repeat myself.

No-one - not belboid, not anybody - 'makes you have to repeat yourself' - you do it of your own free choice, and you seem to do it because you think the U75 'world' is waiting with baited breath to hear the latest nugget of earth-shaking wisdom to come from you.

 

[nino_savatte]

You can be optimistic, and committed to activism, and still listen to serious criticisms: in fact, far from being mutually exclusive, it's essential we do both. I am also convinced people, more than some may think, are on our side, simply becuase these cuts hit so many people, so hard.

Yep.