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Where now for the anti-cuts movement?

And here I think is the source of LLETSA's negative, miserablist tendency's?



Looks as though he's put too much store in the former Soviet Union and when it collapsed, so did any possibility of an alternative solution for him?

It's a pretty standard to all but the most die-hard Stalinists, that 'Soviet-style communism' was rejected, particularly after events in Hungary '56 and Prague '68, a long time ago by most of the radical left and militant workers.

I never had LLETSA down as a 'tankie' until now. :)



Don't be a moron. All I'm doing is pointing out that the entire radical left and politicised, militant workers, have been looking for 'a way forward', or however you put it, since long before the Soviet Union collapsed. Since it's real nature was revealed, in fact, which was actually before the events you mention, although they provided a spur.

No such way forward has been discovered. In fact the communist idea has receded into history as far as the working class internationally is concerned, and nobody is set to breath new life into it. If you think that pointing out facts is 'miserabilism' (as if this is some kind of sin or character flaw anyway), fair enough.
 
Or that others might make me repeat myself due to their complete lack of ability to convince me of their politics?
what's the point in convincing you of anything, when you don't actually have any politics, or in fact anything to say other than the endless impersonation of Private Fraser?
 
It might not be the answer but for myself, I can say the reason I've not been giving the NHS much attention is because I don't really know what is being threatened other than the doctors are being given the purse or something. It's maybe down to ignorance or maybe that the problems are just not being shouted loud enough? It could also be because the cuts are taking a while to really bite. I don't know, just trying to help!
Yes, this is a problem. The NHS proposals are complex, underhand and dishonestly presented. A thread with some links here: http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/th...NHS-should-be-privatised-the-Big-Urban75-Poll

Belboid, it depends what you think of as success. A couple of thousand people on the London NHS demo? Not much for such a major issue. It's been hard to organise stuff partly because it seems Unison and Unite, the two most relevant unions, have not put their weight behind the KONP campaigns. Fuck knows why. TUC has also been crap. False Economy website has done a lot of info-spreading which is good but it seems no one with any resources has put much effort into actual organising. There is small stuff at a local level but I know from experience it's really hard to convince people how much it matters that, say Primary Care Trusts are being dismantled to enable competitive mechanisms. That's not surprising but it is surprising activists haven't put more work into trying to highlight what's happening. NHS Direct Action try but I think they just get in the guardian...
 
what's the point in convincing you of anything, when you don't actually have any politics, or in fact anything to say other than the endless impersonation of Private Fraser?





Every time anybody says anything that smacks of reality, we get Private Fraser. And you say I'm boring.
 
At this moment in time I don't think enough folk know they exist, to be honest, so these folk are unlikely to mistrust them - instinctively or otherwise - which is a seperate problem.

I'd say enough people don't know what unions are, let alone the NSSN etc
 
My own experience of the local anti-cuts movements development is that there's been an unplanned unconscious division of activity - people going away and concentrating on their own area of activity without the feedback into the wider movement that was understood as essential at the start of this stuff. Whether that's because of the failings of the larger movement to provide substantial solidarity to the various campaigns - and if it is, is this simply because of weakness or because of tactical errors or sectarianism etc- is probably the key question right now, at least in terms of re-integrating all the various activities into a connected whole. There've been other issues that have tended to take up peoples activities down here recently as well.

I think behind part of the turning away from the larger movement has pretty clearly been intra-group squabbling - parties fighting for influence, unions bureaucrats trying to keep out the influence of those more radical then them by all sorts of underhand methods and so on. Now, these people see this as politics, it's how they think things should take place, manouvering, battles lines and so on - the effect is to drive out the uncommitted or make those who desperately want to do something walk away and do it on their own, weakening us all.

Looking at if from the other way, from the top-down, the way the cuts have been introduced have helped this fragmentation too. In the past cuts tended to be introduced salami style, cut off a small piece here, a small piece there and eventually you've got half the sausage gone and because the successive cuts have been so small the hope is that they don't effect enough people at once to provoke a generalised reaction - although it often had the effect of allowing those opposed to cuts to concentrate all sorts of other people not immediately effected into the campaigns.

This time they've pretty much gone for the lot at once, which did initially provoke a wider reaction, but one that helped by/creating/pressuring the above divisions have partially managed to turn the pre-existing class/societal economic divisions to their advantage - and so we get people arguing that they can't see why people on the dole should support public sector pensions and so on. I don't know whether that was an intended result of the all-or-nothing approach, but it's ceratinly one i've seen amongst those who should know better. What's needed to get beyond that is pretty obviously some sort of across the board victory that highlights the inter-connected nature of these things, but the govt is managing its various retreats very well for now though.

So the immediate tactical questions are how to keep things together, and what's driven them apart - important to remember that this isn't the battle, this is just preparing the 'army'.

I hope this doesn't sound too pessimistic, because i'm not, on the contrary, i'm very optimistic, but also, i hope. realistic. I recognise that this is a long struggle and it's a process, it will have ebbs and flows, high points and low points. The key is not mistake one for the other but to get the general direction right. I don't believe the previously politically inactive (in formal terms) people on my street who were drawing up plans for local street committees and poring over local maps marking over the various workplaces and drawing up a network of whose mates/family worked where and so on with me only 3 months ago have decided to embrace the cuts since then - that the links they made (in all sorts of terms) have been broken. It's not time to panic.

Woah, I get excited when I see a whole paragraph from you. That was a treat! :cool:

Great post.

Personally, I think top-down approaches are the problem. A large (proper large, as in agent of meaningful change large) movement built from the top down can only ever be weak in its political demands and has no way to break out of that ghetto. So, if it's large enough to effect change, it won't be meaningful.

Which is why I don't get involved in any activist group which has a committee or a formal membership list. It's a self-defeating model.

I think the extent of anger this time is different from anything we have seen in almost all of our lifetimes, with knowledge that simply didn't exist in 1929, and at a different point in the political life-cycle than the poll-tax.

This is a dozen poll-taxes introduced by a party which should have won a landslide against a decaying too-long-in-office government just a year ago. It's huge. The hung parliament told us that we are fighting an incompetent set of over-priveleged imbeciles who invoke the memory of Thatcher without even realising it. And, the only alternative are too recently out of power to be much more palatable than they were a year ago.

I think the grassroots will just keep doing what they have to and can do to express their revulsion and anger, and many will do it in ways that inspire others to do likewise. The top-downers can do what they like, but if they want to influence the action they'll have to embrace it. Cos no one else is interested in being told when and how to act by careerists who will only ever push as hard as their personal interests dictate.

The experience of talking to Unison members being laid off with no notice and replaced with scab volunteers by British Waterways is 100% opposite to the experience of talking to RMT members who have been abandoned by the managers to deal with signals chaos and angry stranded drunken commuters.

I love the grin of pride when you ask a transport worker if they're in the RMT. Until most people have experience of a union that actually does fight for them, they're not going to be interested in fighting under a union leadership. Why on earth would they?
 
loads of the train staff where i live where RMT badges and more of them seem to be wearing them as well :cool:
 
They are so up for it, it's unreal!

The lads at Oxford are advising me on how I can join as a self-employed public sector scientist. :D

They really look after the non-unionised (because mostly temp) workers on the concourse. Last time I stopped for a chat, the guy was off to the concourse shop to buy some burns cream for a girl in the coffee place because the franchisee was too tight to get them proper pads to handle hot trays with. :mad:

I have a bit of a crush on Bob, and judging from the reaction when you mention him, so do most RMT members.:cool:
 
Nowt embarrassing about that babe! Man does what most union leaders dare not. Sexy as fuck. :cool:
 
When you in oxford again btw? Another crazy night may be quite entertaining

:cool:

Just got back actually, with more work = more meetings = more free travel.

I get my post delivered there, and should probably pick it up more often … We'll be within 45 minutes for the next 9 months or so, so it's easy to manage, but you might want to give me enough notice to get some sleep first this time! :oops: :D

Could take you on a tour of my wanderings after we parted. Was a fun 24 hours. :D Unless you want to go annoy some posh people again? Am flush enough, I think. ;)

Has to start at the station, obv.
 
Might be wise … :oops:

I can come fetch you if you want to make it a Saturday. I have my key back for emergency crash pad purposes. ;)
 
If you think that pointing out facts is 'miserabilism' (as if this is some kind of sin or character flaw anyway), fair enough.

I don't think pointing out facts is 'miserablism'.

I just think that using facts as you do doesn't add anything to an already pretty miserable outlook.

Cup of tea?

images
 
The thinking person's union leader, I think. Not sure how your mind works like. :hmm:
 
I don't think pointing out facts is 'miserablism'.

I just think that using facts as you do doesn't add anything to an already pretty miserable outlook.

Cup of tea?

images

If the outlook is miserable then it's miserable. What do you want me to do about it?

Pretending things are rosier than they really are will, as usual, only magnify the inevitable disappointment ahead.
 
That's clicheed bollocks. Pessimists seal their own fate. They miss out on opportunities to make their world better cos no one in their right mind would want a 'can't be doner' anywhere near anything that matters.

Avoid like the plague. They drain morale and eat time and deter others from getting involved. Embittered types get the solo roles. And rightly so. They're hell to work with.
 
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