What should the punishment be for swearing at a teacher?

[_angel_]

it would depend on the disruption to the class. if the other students were able to understand the condition and it didn't disrupt them, then it wouldn't be a problem. if it did, then it wouldn't be a question of punishment, but they may not be suitable for mainstream learning. schools and individual teachers are assessed on behaviour, focus and engagement in lessons. if anything is preventing that - even for a reason like tourettes, then the perception is that the whole class is not learning or progressing in the appropriate way. That said - i imagine kids can understand that tourettes is an uncontrollable condition. the problem with adhd, and particularly oppositional defiance disorder, is that what happens looks and sounds exactly like 'bad behaviour'.

i've had this conversation with kids many times. why is XXXX in isolation when YYYY did the same thing and just got exited from the lesson? Why is AAAA being permenantly excluded? BBBB is far naughtier than her in every lesson!

How entirely predictable that a school doesn't understand the condition a kid has a diagnosis for. Unfortunately this happens in special schools too. I dunno if you saw a programme about an autistic spectrum school called "make me normal". The head teacher spectacularly failed to "get" the whole point with autism.

 

[hmmph]

It's the first Disability History Month (22nd Nov - 22nd Dec) at the moment. The focus is on schools and education aiming to challenge descrimination and negative attitudes. check www.ukdisabilitymonth.com for resources

Also the QCDA have supported World of Inclusion to design some disability equality support materials for schools to help them with positive planning and practice - these can be found at www.worldofinclusion.com/qcda.htm - there is loads of stuff there for both primary and secondary schools.

Contact a Family are also running a SEND project on behalf of the DfE which provides support and resources for SENCos.They are also running the SEN National Advice Service for parents which has replaced ACE's helpline and covers a range of issues related to SEN. You can call them for free on 0808 808 3555.

 

[spanglechick]

it's tough. he'll have to do something education or trainingy til 17 or 18 by then, won't he?

 

[toggle]

my kid has what I call his 'getting away with it card' that he gets because he has adhd. he thinks that he woudln't get into half the trouble any other kid would and very few of the other kids commennt on anyhting that he gets away with.

I really wasn't joking about him getting into no trouble at all for fighting in class last week, i also didn't get any comment home from the school when he broke another kid's fingers (accidentally, but bloody carelessly)

and to give an idea, this school is about 20 miles from madz. it's not a cornwall stuck in the dark ages with this, it is that she has her kids at a really shitty school.

suggestion: find out what advance college programms there are. they are for kids that just can't fit in at school. he's probably a year young for most of them, but i know truro start them at 14. part of it is for exceptionally bright kids, but part is for the kids that just don't fit at school. if your local college don't do this, try contacting truro.

 

[madzone]

He's walked out of school. I'm 30 miles away and there's fuck all I can do about it. He'll be grounded tomorrow night as well now (he's grounded tonight for being 2 hrs late last night) so that's more fighting to look forward to.

I fucking give up.

 

[krtek a houby]

Poor madz. Is there anyone who can mediate in this instance so to avoid the fighting?

 

[madzone]

No. I rang home to tell mr madz (why the fuck the school can't do that is beyond me) and he flipped. I spend most of my time mediating between the two of them.

 

[krtek a houby]

No. I rang home to tell mr madz (why the fuck the school can't do that is beyond me) and he flipped. I spend most of my time mediating between the two of them.

Oh dear. What are you going to do? Does anything you say get through?

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

Sorry to hear about your situation madz.

I know you said above that school and home issues are seperate but with all due respect madz I think you should be punishing him in some form at home (but also rewarding him obviously). His behaviour at school is clearly affecting everyones home life. Unfotunatley home life and school life are not seperate, just in the same way that work life and home life are not.

One directly affects the other. And it sounds that it has stepped beyond the boundaires of the school yard and is affecting all your family - and will continue to do so if he behaves like this when he becomes more adult (and I do mean if - becuase not everyone does, and many do grow out of it.)

I don't have kids myself but... I knew at that age that school was only temporary and I know that the only thing that stopped me misbehaving in school was the inevitable shitstorm of disaprroval and reprocussions I would get from my mum at home.

At the end I think it boils down to this: Your kid loves you - not the school. He respects you and not the school. So when he misbehaves at school I think that you need to show him that it's not acceptable for him to behave in that way - at home - becuase one affects the other.

 

[madzone]

I'll just do what I've been doing.Find out why he walked out, ground him and listen to him and mr madz kicking off at each other, shouting, swearing and breaking stuff.

 

[madzone]

Sorry to hear about your situation madz.

I know you said above that school and home issues are seperate but with all due respect madz I think you should be punishing him in some form at home (but also rewarding him obviously). His behaviour at school is clearly affecting everyones home life. Unfotunatley home life and school life are not seperate, just in the same way that work life and home life are not.

One directly affects the other. And it sounds that it has stepped beyond the boundaires of the school yard and is affecting all your family - and will continue to do so if he behaves like this when he becomes more adult (and I do mean if - becuase not everyone does, and many do grow out of it.)

I don't have kids myself but... I knew at that age that school was only temporary and I know that the only thing that stopped me misbehaving in school was the inevitable shitstorm of disaprroval and reprocussions I would get from my mum at home.

At the end I think it boils down to this: Your kid loves you - not the school. He respects you and not the school. So when he misbehaves at school I think that you need to show him that it's not acceptable for him to behave in that way - at home - becuase one affects the other.

He does have sanctions at home. I'm not punushing him for stuff he's already getting punished for in school. If you just lay punishment upon punishment on a kid they'll give up. That's the quickest way for him to start hanging round with even worse kids and doing even worse things than he is now.

 

[krtek a houby]

I'll just do what I've been doing.Find out why he walked out, ground him and listen to him and mr madz kicking off at each other, shouting, swearing and breaking stuff.

That must be so frustrating for you, though

 

[toggle]

I'll just do what I've been doing.Find out why he walked out, ground him and listen to him and mr madz kicking off at each other, shouting, swearing and breaking stuff.

think you need to kick mr madz again. he is probably making it worse. if all kid is coming home to is a fight, it's no supprise he's not coming home

 

[equationgirl]

best of luck madzone, sounds like you're stuck in an impossible situation again.

 

[Wilson]

is he allowed to have a fire in the garden?

 

[Yu_Gi_Oh]

Madzone, I hope you don't mind me sticking my oar in, I really don't know much about kids, but is it possible for you to see your local Education Welfare Officer? I had to see one, for similar stuff; walking out of school, being on the edge of exclusion etc and she seemed to be much more powerful than everyone else and was able to change a lot of things and bend a lot of rules. This was over 10 years ago now, but I do remember the stupid rigidity of the school relaxing once the EWO was in charge.

It must be a nightmare for you, it's not like you can actually make your kid do anything, even if the school are acting like you can. Even grounding is only possible if there's someone at home to enforce it.

 

[madzone]

Well, for anyone who's still reading this sorry tale it seems it may not be a cut and dried as him just deciding to fuck off from school for a jolly.

He really struggles with maths (both the lesson and the teacher) Once he has it explained to him he's fine but the teacher has a real problem with him and won't explain it. They'll only move him down a set so I want to avoid that. He has a time out card and is supposed to have a support person in with him in all his maths lessons. Apparently yesterday the teacher set a test and my boy didn't understand it. He asked for help and the teacher ignored him so he put his time out card out on the desk and the teacher ignored it. He said he pushed the time out card out every time the teacher walked past but he ignored it every time. When I asked why he didn't ask his support person for help he said he didn't have one. Now, I suspect he may not have been as deliberate with putting his time out card on the desk as he claims and I'm not suggesting he's blameless but to not have support in that particualr class is fucking ridiculous. It's the flashpoint for all his other problems.

I've emailed them and said that it's unrealistic to expect him to change his behaviour without the agreed support and that by agreeing to do all these things and then not doing them they're setting him up to fail.

I've lifted his grounding on the basis of what actually happened and the fact that he was really helpful to me last night whilst mr madz was ill in bed. He bathed the baby and put her to bed and kept an eye on the fire etc and even cooked his own tea because he didn't like what I was having. So, he can go to the ball

 

[toggle]

It's maths classes that tend to set my son off as well. he went batchit over a test that was given 4 days earlier than he was told it would happen.

IDK, does he have access to some of the online maths stuff through the school? I think mine can pick up more through these than he does in class a lot fo the time.

 

[Greebo]

<snip>I've emailed them and said that it's unrealistic to expect him to change his behaviour without the agreed support and that by agreeing to do all these things and then not doing them they're setting him up to fail.

I've lifted his grounding on the basis of what actually happened and the fact that he was really helpful to me last night whilst mr madz was ill in bed. He bathed the baby and put her to bed and kept an eye on the fire etc and even cooked his own tea because he didn't like what I was having. So, he can go to the ball

Good call on the email madzone. And it's encouraging to hear that your son's able to be considerate & responsible when he's not upset and angry. It's almost criminal the way that the school seems to be setting him up to fail so often.

 

[sheothebudworths]

The senco and I don't see eye to eye. We had an absolutely disatrous meeting where he told me that he has to punish my boy the same as everyone else because if he gets away with it then everyone else will want to get away with it too. We were talking about htings directly related to his adhd. He also said he doesn't think it's the responsibility of the school to find out how adhd will present itself in a classroom setting.

I'm thinking it'd be well worth emailing him separately, too - to get back in writing what he is (and more to the point, what he *isn't*) committing himself to in terms of strategies...and also, to what degree he acknowledges the potential impact adhd may have on a student and their ability to avoid stuff like this without further support (or even, the support that's been promised which hasn't materialised).

You could maybe just write specifying that you would like *confirmation* of the points he made in the meeting (listing what they were), with any corrections made if you may have *misunderstood* some of it - as well as listing the points that YOU made - acknowledging again that you have already made it clear that you don't expect him NOT to be punished, but that the punishments need to be appropriate and that he ALSO needs to be rewarded as previously agreed etc - cos the senco should be your main ally, ffs - and if he's failing the kids in his care that badly (and over fairly straightforward stuff, given his position, eh! ) then it might be useful to have something in writing if you want to take that further.

Presumably then he either would confirm it, or he'd wriggle about a bit - but in that case you may actually end up with him promising some support that he hasn't up until now - so it'd be a win/win situation of sorts either way.

Come on, madz - you're great at this shit fucking hell, I do know it's extra work you could well do without but there again you could do without it all going tits up as it is atm, too...and I fucking know you can resolve this if anyone can - get emailing....

 

[madzone]

I've got a meeting with them (again ) next Thursday.

I'm fucking knackered

 

[krtek a houby]

Fingers crossed for that, madz & chin up xx

 

[toggle]

I've got a meeting with them (again ) next Thursday.

I'm fucking knackered

http://www.nice.org.uk/nicemedia/live/12061/42107/42107.pdf

Teachers trained in ADHD and its management should provide behavioural interventions in class.

 

[toggle]

i knew you would like that

 

[lizzieloo]

I've had an email from the deputy head (who I've been working with closely) saying she's happy to leave it at the day of internal exclusion and an apology. She also started wittering on about sticker charts. He's 13 ffs and that's why we settled on the reward of the drum sessions. They haven't happened So, yet again it's been all stick and no carrot. No wonder he's pissed off with them - everythingh we agree on they don't actually follow through on. I suggested they give him a mini bar of chocolate or something as a reward and they thought I was joking but that would work for him

The main problem here is any sane person would swear at them, they sound like a right shower of shites.

 

[barney_pig]

Clarkson just had to say sorry and then go on a holiday to China,paid for by us.

 

[madzone]

I'm back up there again at 1pm today to talk about the same old shit to a different person. I'm really hoping I don't lose my temper.

 

[toggle]

good luck hun

 

[Steel Icarus]

It used to be half a day in "iso" for swearing at a teacher in the school where I was a TA. (Iso I think is the same as internal exclusion - a room with 16 booths and no talking whatsoever and the dullest work possible for both kids and staff)

Swearing, generally, was just a ticking off and a reminder to watch yer language, cos a lot of kids do it without thinking or sometimes even knowing they've done it.

 

[dessiato]

I've followed this thread with interest as I have a seriously badly behaved kid in one of my classes.

This week he stabbed a kid, punched a girl, strangle the kid he stabbed. This is just the latest in a long line of problems which include hitting a teacher and attacking other students who looked at him.

We have been told that he is a disturbed kid, we are not to punish him or exclude him, we have to be nice to him and not exclude him from classes. For the safety of the others we are refusing to do so.