What is wrong with 'Vote Labour without illusions'?

[Stay Beautiful]

Now I don't like the SWP's wider political agenda, and I never have (nor any other Vanguardist/Democratic Centralist groups, for that matter), but this always seemed a pretty good slogan to me. Along with Cliff's 'small gap but people live in it'. Labour are currently shit but the lesser evil still means less evil. This doesn't imply to go out and campaign for, lets say, Alan Johnson, but at least get off your arse for 5 minutes to make sure we get something marginally less rubbish than the current lot? This also doesn't imply that Labour can be 'won back' (were they ever 'won'?) or that nothing else should be done once a Labour government is elected. At best, I see the Labour Party, as currently constructed, as just one minor tool in stopping the rich and powerful getting everything their own way. A tool that has the potential to do this much better than it has been doing it for the last 30 years or so but it does make a difference to people's lives. The minimum wage, tax credits, surestart etc. Even New Labour were not as bad as some on the left made out. Labour have always done a lot of right-wing shit - it was never a reason not to vote for them.

What is so controversial about this on the left? I note the Tories over the years have generally never had this trouble. No SDP style splits, no internal wranglings comparable with the Militant period in Labour, and no real sustained challenge from the the right and this unity has been much to their benefit and pushed their agenda further than they could have imagined. They march out religiously in Windor and Witney giving the Tories thumping great majorities because they know the score. By all means slag them off in government but, come election time, they unite and keep Labour out.

 

[ska invita]

I think there is a challenge from the right to the Torys - BNP and UKIP

At best, I see the Labour Party, as currently constructed, as just one minor tool in stopping the rich and powerful getting everything their own way.

I know what you mean, but lol anyway.

I live in one of the safest labour seats so whatever i vote it makes no difference. Unless you live in a swing marginal it also makes no difference. In my opinion the voting system needs changing, and without it it just drives a party like labour to fight for the hearts of these swing constituencies.

 

[ska invita]

The minimum wage, tax credits, surestart etc. Even New Labour were not as bad as some on the left made out.

At least this lot have yet to kill a million+ people in wars or introduce ID cards, but im sure they would if the situation arose. There are some good things NL achieved - a lot of money went into the NHS and a lot of that went into getting nurses wages and the like up - BUT all the key policies we complain about this Tory/Lib coalition are new labour policies, from uni fees to benefit attacks

 

[Stay Beautiful]

I think there is a challenge from the right to the Torys - BNP and UKIP

A sustained challenge though? They're polling high, mid-term. I expect the vast majority of the Tory inclined UKIPers to slink back to them when it gets serious and to keep Labour out.

 

[JHE]

Labour are currently shit but the lesser evil still means less evil.

Of course it is very often right to vote for the lesser evil. Every time I have voted I have voted for what I have judged to be the least of the available evils.

The thing I strongly dislike about the Social Workers' old line of voting Labour "without illusions" is the Trot arrogance of the notion that people who are not in "the party" have illusions in this, that or the other. When people disagree politically the roots of the disagreement can lie in a wide range of different things, including of course different perceptions of current possibilities and what is desirable. They are not in general rooted in one side having a clear understanding of the world and the other side having "illusions". In the case of the Social Workers' old line, the Trot arrogance is taken one step further. They suppose that, though they and you are doing the same thing (voting Labour), they are doing it with sound judgement and a scientific Marxist understanding of the current situation, while you are prone to do it because you have naive "illusions" in the Labour Party.

The Trots are the ones with the illusions: they massively overrate their own importance and understanding.

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

Yes, I agree. As disappointing in some important respects as Labour's current leadership are, they're still the 'only game in town', and they can still be pushed to the left a bit more than they have gone.

In my opinion there are a minimal two or three main policies from a 2015- Labour government which, if unfulfilled, would make total divestment in Labour a considerable option and the 'lesser evil' more unacceptable; they've at least made some good and strong statements in some crucial areas, while still being lousy in many other ways!

 

[cesare]

I've got no desire to vote for an evil.

 

[muscovyduck]

I think getting Labour in is a good idea because then they won't be able to hijack protests and movements, meaning they become slightly weaker and alternative voices become stronger. There's also the fact that they're so heavily funded by trade unions. Although it doesn't look like that's going to stop any time soon, it useful to have that connection, especially over the next few years. I'd prefer it if people focused their efforts on stopping this funding rather than calling a general strike - I'm quite sure a general strike will damage the left rather than empower it if it's so forced.
Not sure I could bring myself to voting for them though. I'll be of voting age by the next election. I wish elections were yearly - it would solve a lot of our problems if the government had elections in their minds all the time. Easier to keep them in check.

 

[ska invita]

Not sure I could bring myself to voting for them though. I'll be of voting age by the next election.

unless you live in a swing seat there is no point in voting labour. Ive never voted labour in a general election as its an irrelevant vote - usually vote for small "left" groups depending who is standing (including greens! *ducks!). I voted libdem at the last elections as cryptic support for Proportional Representation - the way Clegg fucked up on this issue (AV) is unbelievable . I would vote Labour if it was on the wire against a Tory candidate, but theres very few places in the country where that is the case.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Everything.

 

[DotCommunist]

its just another cheek of the same arse

 

[JTG]

The main problem is that it means voting Labour.

HTH

 

[sihhi]

Nothing wrong with it, but not a damn thing right about it either.

I see the Labour Party, as currently constructed, as just one minor tool in stopping the rich and powerful getting everything their own way

The Labour Party is how the rich and powerful get everything their own way.

 

[J Ed]

When talking about American elections, Chomsky says he'd vote Democrat in a swing state because there will be a difference in the quality of lives with a Democratic government since Republicans are so out there.

Well, we now know that there will be no improvement in the lives of people with a Labour government over the current government, since Ed Miliband has pledged not to give one inch on Tory austerity. In fact, we know it will be worse since Labour are already talking about raiding public sector pensions. The only difference is that we will have a government that is more successfully able to mollify trade unions through patronage, and so will be able to continue the Blairite tradition of getting away with attacks on the rest of us that the Tories would never have gotten away with. I don't see what defence there is for anyone to vote Labour anymore.

 

[DotCommunist]

When talking about American elections, Chomsky says he'd vote Democrat in a swing state because there will be a difference in the quality of lives with a Democratic government since Republicans are so out there.

Well, we now know that there will be no improvement in the lives of people with a Labour government over the current government, since Ed Miliband has pledged not to give one inch on Tory austerity. In fact, we know it will be worse since Labour are already talking about raiding public sector pensions. The only difference is that we will have a government that is more successfully able to mollify trade unions through patronage, and so will be able to continue the Blairite tradition of getting away with attacks on the rest of us that the Tories would never have gotten away with. I don't see what defence there is for anyone to vote Labour anymore.

he said there can be no end to cuts unless they find some money elsewhere. By which he probably means pub sec pensions then!

 

[ferrelhadley]

Make something that is better. Give people something to vote for.

 

[treelover]

says it all...

 

[redsquirrel]

Look at the "Why Labour are Scum Thread".

If you vote Labour you're voting for the implementation of austerity measures and policies that have/will increased inequality.

(Never mind the fact that IMO plenty of those voting "without illusions" are doing nothing of the sort - case in point

At best, I see the Labour Party, as currently constructed, as just one minor tool in stopping the rich and powerful getting everything their own way.

).

 

[Hocus Eye.]

Now that Miliband has come out and stated that Labour will not change any of the cuts made by the coalition that leaves us free to not vote for him.

It reminds me of the sign over the door of Dartmoor Prison. It says "Abandon hope all ye who enter here".

 

[Streathamite]

I think getting Labour in is a good idea because then they won't be able to hijack protests and movements, meaning they become slightly weaker and alternative voices become stronger.

I think that's being remarkably optimistic, to put it mildly.
There is NOTHING good about labour, beyond the LRC and the dwindling band of Campaign Group MPs

 

[Lo Siento.]

even on a practical level, the fact that everyone on the Left will vote for Labour regardless is just a blank cheque for those fuckers to do any nasty shit they feel like...

 

[phildwyer]

It reminds me of the sign over the door of Dartmoor Prison. It says "Abandon hope all ye who enter here".

Where do you get this stuff?

 

[treelover]

Is it in Great Expectations?

 

[treelover]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/23/protests-spirit-of-occupy-alive-istanbul-rio


This John Harris article is ostensibly about the global protests but is it more about his and Blue Labours(Glassman and Cruddass) notions of shrinking the state and introducing more voluntarism, etc.

 

[J Ed]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/23/protests-spirit-of-occupy-alive-istanbul-rio


This John Harris article is ostensibly about the global protests but is it more about his and Blue Labours(Glassman and Cruddass) notions of shrinking the state and introducing more voluntarism, etc.

Good spot. Wow, that is incredibly incoherent, a lot of the protesters in Brazil are actually calling for better, state-run healthcare but I guess you can make up any shit you want to fit your own ideological preconceptions of what is happening.

 

[el-ahrairah]

What is wrong with 'Vote Labour without illusions'?


you get Labour. So nothing provided you want more shit fed to you.

 

[butchersapron]

And produce illusions.

 

[muscovyduck]

I think that's being remarkably optimistic, to put it mildly.
There is NOTHING good about labour, beyond the LRC and the dwindling band of Campaign Group MPs

Well no, because there are a large amount of demonstrations that get high-jacked by Labour. If they find it increasingly difficult to smother protests in their brand/publicity exercises then it'll be other actual activists giving quotes in the newspapers, and other people who get time on the stage. For every Labour politician who is given a platform, no matter how big or small it is, there is someone else who put more work in and yet doesn't get to put their name to it.

Yes, it may seem irrelevant, and it may even be irrelevant, but it accumulates over time. Labour is losing/has lost its brand and there aren't that many people left in Labour that are passionate about making a change and creating equality. I'd prefer Joe Bloggs got his name or picture in a newspaper rather than a careerist MP. Makes him feel better about his work, shows people that you don't need a politics degree to start building a protest about something, and it will probably be a lot less manipulative than Labour's spin.

 

[Streathamite]

Well no, because there are a large amount of demonstrations that get high-jacked by Labour. If they find it increasingly difficult to smother protests in their brand/publicity exercises then it'll be other actual activists giving quotes in the newspapers, and other people who get time on the stage. For every Labour politician who is given a platform, no matter how big or small it is, there is someone else who put more work in and yet doesn't get to put their name to it.

Yes, it may seem irrelevant, and it may even be irrelevant, but it accumulates over time. Labour is losing/has lost its brand and there aren't that many people left in Labour that are passionate about making a change and creating equality. I'd prefer Joe Bloggs got his name or picture in a newspaper rather than a careerist MP. Makes him feel better about his work, shows people that you don't need a politics degree to start building a protest about something, and it will probably be a lot less manipulative than Labour's spin.

I see entirely what you mean, and you've made some good points there. I should have explained that what I meant is that I didn't think that the rerduced chance of Labour hijacking & smothering a movement or campaign will lead to alternative progressive voices being heard more, or more likely.

 

[SaskiaJayne]

A Labour overall majority at next election will be least worst option one would hope, the only other election results will be either Tory overall majority or some sort of coalition. That is the choice, there is no other & I am sure at next GE most of urban wil be rooting for a Labour overall majority simply because it is probably least worst option. Anybody who thinks they are all tossers, which will be plenty, has the choice not to take part in the democratic process & not vote, but I shall vote because I enjoy voting, standing in that wooden polling booth & putting a cross on paper is something that gives me a good feeling, delightfuly low tech & totally parochial. Which is why I always vote Labour in my solidly Tory constituency.