Vaccination rollout vs track & trace: outsourcing and the NHS

[teuchter]

Would not some extra funding help all this? Rather than the hundreds of millions that seem to have been thrown at Serco and co. with little financial oversight. Councils have been squeezed for years - release some of that money to them.

Hundreds of millions of pounds have been released to councils.

 

[teuchter]

https://ifs.org.uk/uploads/R179-COVID-19-and-English-council-funding-what-is-the-medium-term-outlook-1.pdf

That report is dated Sept 2020. It will be noted that they are saying that councils require yet more extra funding, but perhaps it's useful to put the numbers paid to Serco et al into context.

 

[two sheds]

Yes that's good (although the government has a history of giving with one hand and taking back with the other, and of announcing new money that is actually old money).

How much has Serco been paid for test and trace, and other private companies been paid for PPE and similar purchasing contracts to put that into perspective?

 

[Pickman's model]

I don’t give a fuck about your anecdote of a handful of library workers either, as that doesn’t change my point. Most councils have fuck all library workers left anyway, and the vast majority that do have had to redeploy them to other essential services.

you don't do reading very well i see. which for a pedant is something of a weakness. i have consistently said that my suggestion was a possibility. not that it was a certainty. may i draw your attention to the words 'for example' in the post you quote, which to all but a buffoon would convey that the following words were an example and not the whole?

 

[Pickman's model]

Here are some examples. Councils have been struggling to maintain their statutory care responsibilities. The idea that they could staff T&T is a nonsense:

Northants library staff redeployed to help vulnerable residents

Library staff across Northamptonshire have been redeployed to help vulnerable residents who are self-isolating during the Covid-19 pandemic.

www.northamptonshire.gov.uk

Around 70 staff from the library service team will be supporting the Community Resilience hub from today, calling vulnerable people from local library phones to check that they are safe and well, and if they need any support.

200 council staff redeployed to support the Covid-19 response – Herefordshire Council

200 council staff redeployed to support the Covid-19 response Staff help with delivering emergency supplies and supporting the most vulnerable residents

www.herefordshire.gov.uk

One such redeployed team is the Library Delivery Service. They are used to delivering books to the housebound in the community; now they are using their logistic and organisational skills for a different purpose – to pick-up and distribute medicines to people who may not have friends, families or neighbours to support them.

Hertfordshire County Council staff redeployed to fight Covid-19 in frontline roles

We have redeployed 849 of our staff to work in critical services to help fight Covid-19.

www.hertfordshire.gov.uk

Other county council staff, including those who usually work in services that have been suspended since the lockdown was introduced, such as Libraries, Adult Care Day Services and Registration Services, are being asked to offer extra hours if they work part time and to move to different roles in a bid to support the frontline response to the Covid-19 pandemic through our new Redeployment Hub, which aims to create a community workforce. These individuals will be moved to more urgent duties within administration functions, adult social care or community support roles.

you support my point that people can move from one department in a council to another dependant on the requirements of the service. that they are not currently deployed within t&t does not mean they can't be.

 

[platinumsage]

you don't do reading very well i see. which for a pedant is something of a weakness. i have consistently said that my suggestion was a possibility. not that it was a certainty. may i draw your attention to the words 'for example' in the post you quote, which to all but a buffoon would convey that the following words were an example and not the whole?

Your suggestion might have had some merit if it was accompanied by some actual evidence that councils had spare wfh staff that weren't being redeployed in fulfilling councils' statutory responsibilities. However my suggestion that I found such spare capacity difficult to believe was met by you with an expletive and an anecdote which is demonstrably not reflective of the situation in the vast majority of councils.

 

[Pickman's model]

Your suggestion might have had some merit if it was accompanied by some actual evidence that councils had spare wfh staff that weren't being redeployed in fulfilling councils' statutory responsibilities. However my suggestion that I found such spare capacity difficult to believe was met by you with an expletive and an anecdote which is demonstrably not reflective of the situation in the vast majority of councils.

You've demonstrated people usually involved in fulfilling one set of statutory responsibilities can be redeployed to another. If you want to witter on about the vast majority of councils I'd like you to demonstrate that as I'm not minded to take it on your say-so. And I see no reason to give a fuck what you believe

 

[teuchter]

How much has Serco been paid for test and trace, and other private companies been paid for PPE and similar purchasing contracts to put that into perspective?

I thought you were on top of these numbers, because you seem so certain that they are disproportionately high.

Why are we now talking about "purchasing contracts"? Would it be news to you that the NHS, councils and other public bodies are always purchasing supplies of goods from private companies? Or were you under the impression they normally manufacture their PPE, pencils, library book scanning machines and wheelie bins in-house?

 

[platinumsage]

And I see no reason to give a fuck what you believe

In that case I'll leave you in your delusion that councils have legions of idle or uselessly deployed staff who should be redeployed to track & trace.

 

[Pickman's model]

In that case I'll leave you in your delusion that councils have legions of idle or uselessly deployed staff who should be redeployed to track & trace.

You're the one who introduced the notion of legions to the discussion. Unlike you I don't think any council staff are idle: although they may be uselessly deployed. I myself wouldn't consider 70 staff redeployed from one service at one authority to be a handful, and you've shown other services can have staff redeployed too. So the numbers who could potentially be moved to t&t may not be legion. They may well be insufficient as so few council services before the virus were at the complement they needed. But they could go some way towards providing the needed service.

 

[two sheds]

I thought you were on top of these numbers, because you seem so certain that they are disproportionately high.

Well you carpet bombed the thread with government figures for how much money had been given to all councils "to put the numbers paid to Serco et al into context". I'm gently pointing out that it doesn't put the Serco numbers into context at all because the government refuses to say how much they've paid Serco.

I wonder why.

Why are we now talking about "purchasing contracts"? Would it be news to you that the NHS, councils and other public bodies are always purchasing supplies of goods from private companies? Or were you under the impression they normally manufacture their PPE, pencils, library book scanning machines and wheelie bins in-house?

Yes, that's why I said "purchasing contracts" to make it clear I'm not expecting the NHS to be making all these things themselves. And I'm specifically talking about the PPE contracts that were handed over to the private sector, several of which ended up with PPE that had to be thrown away because it didn't meet requirements, as we've discussed in the past - or as I've discussed and you've ignored.

This is pointless - like our last discussion where you claimed nobody had enumerated the billions paid in private sector contracts right after being pointed to where the Good Law Project was enumerating them. And then when shown that contracts were given to a major donor to the tory party you replied to the effect ... well if we're going to count any company with contacts to the tory party.

But you keep talking about pencils and wheelie bins.

 

[teuchter]

And I'm specifically talking about the PPE contracts that were handed over to the private sector,

Do you mean PPE contracts that weren't previously in the private sector?

 

[two sheds]

This seems a fair summary:

The truth about the billion pound PPE procurement fiasco

The DHSC bypassed normal tendering processes to place a series of single-bidder contracts for PPE with a variety of suppliers, citing “genuine reasons for extreme urgency” caused by “unforeseeable” events ...

yorkshirebylines.co.uk

Lots of contracts to companies with no previous experience in PPE supply.

Some of which were just wasted:

Ministers accused of ‘wasting’ £150 million on PPE in “unmitigated disaster”

The Times is reporting that ministers have wasted £150m purchasing PPE equipment that was found to be unusable. The Chinese-made FFP2 face masks were supplied as part of a £252m contract placed with Ayanda Capital, a family financial trader with no history or experience of supplying PPE. This is...

yorkshirebylines.co.uk

and

Coronavirus PPE: all 400,000 gowns flown from Turkey for NHS fail UK standards

Health department understood to be returning shipment of PPE and seeking refund

www.theguardian.com

 

[teuchter]

So, nothing to do with contracts being "handed over to the private sector".

 

[Pickman's model]

Do you mean PPE contracts that weren't previously in the private sector?

ppe contracts that weren't previously at all

 

[two sheds]

So, nothing to do with contracts being "handed over to the private sector".

As opposed to the NHS handling them ... the government gave the contracts to private sector companies (many with tory party links) with no experience in PPE who then ballsed up the purchasing with basic errors like .... gowns and masks that didn't meet UK regulations. How is that nothing to do with them being handed over to the private sector?

 

[platinumsage]

You're the one who introduced the notion of legions to the discussion. Unlike you I don't think any council staff are idle: although they may be uselessly deployed. I myself wouldn't consider 70 staff redeployed from one service at one authority to be a handful, and you've shown other services can have staff redeployed too. So the numbers who could potentially be moved to t&t may not be legion. They may well be insufficient as so few council services before the virus were at the complement they needed. But they could go some way towards providing the needed service.

Where did I say that council staff were idle

Anyway I am glad you now agree with me that the numbers of staff redeployable from libraries etc are likely to be insufficient due to previous cuts, let alone the fact they've already been deployed to other essential services that councils are required to undertake, which track and trace is not.

It follows then that any council-oriented track and trace effort would have to recruit and train significant numbers of new staff, an operation that they don't seem best placed to conduct given their current staffing pressures.

 

[Spandex]

Here are some examples. Councils have been struggling to maintain their statutory care responsibilities. The idea that they could staff T&T is a nonsense:

Northants library staff redeployed to help vulnerable residents

Library staff across Northamptonshire have been redeployed to help vulnerable residents who are self-isolating during the Covid-19 pandemic.

www.northamptonshire.gov.uk

Around 70 staff from the library service team will be supporting the Community Resilience hub from today, calling vulnerable people from local library phones to check that they are safe and well, and if they need any support.

200 council staff redeployed to support the Covid-19 response – Herefordshire Council

200 council staff redeployed to support the Covid-19 response Staff help with delivering emergency supplies and supporting the most vulnerable residents

www.herefordshire.gov.uk

One such redeployed team is the Library Delivery Service. They are used to delivering books to the housebound in the community; now they are using their logistic and organisational skills for a different purpose – to pick-up and distribute medicines to people who may not have friends, families or neighbours to support them.

Hertfordshire County Council staff redeployed to fight Covid-19 in frontline roles

We have redeployed 849 of our staff to work in critical services to help fight Covid-19.

www.hertfordshire.gov.uk

Other county council staff, including those who usually work in services that have been suspended since the lockdown was introduced, such as Libraries, Adult Care Day Services and Registration Services, are being asked to offer extra hours if they work part time and to move to different roles in a bid to support the frontline response to the Covid-19 pandemic through our new Redeployment Hub, which aims to create a community workforce. These individuals will be moved to more urgent duties within administration functions, adult social care or community support roles.

The furlough rules for Local Authorities say:

Where staff are not able to carry out their usual work, all employers in the public sector should make every effort to redeploy employees to assist with the Government’s response. This could include redeployment within the current organisation, or to other areas of the public sector.

In exceptional cases where Local Authorities need to close venues and furlough staff, it may be appropriate for them to claim funding through the Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme.

link

So it's a duty on Councils to redeploy staff before they consider furloughing them. Despite that some councils have furloughed hundreds of staff each. Colchester furloughed a third of it's workforce.

 

[Pickman's model]

Where did I say that council staff were idle

Anyway I am glad you now agree with me that the numbers of staff redeployable from libraries etc are likely to be insufficient due to previous cuts, let alone the fact they've already been deployed to other essential services that councils are required to undertake, which track and trace is not.

It follows then that any council-oriented track and trace effort would have to recruit and train significant numbers of new staff, an operation that they don't seem best placed to conduct given their current staffing pressures.

no, that doesn't follow at all. what follows is that as for the past decade (and indeed for many decades) councils have done their best to offer services with declining budgets and inadequate levels of staffing any test and trace effort offered by councils in the current climate would involve insufficient numbers of staff. unless the government steps up and puts a load of money their way. which is er unlikely. so once again local authorities would put a brave face on it and wheel out the doing more with less slogan.

 

[teuchter]

As opposed to the NHS handling them ... the government gave the contracts to private sector companies (many with tory party links) with no experience in PPE who then ballsed up the purchasing with basic errors like .... gowns and masks that didn't meet UK regulations. How is that nothing to do with them being handed over to the private sector?

It seems that your view is that some inappropriate companies were chosen by the government, and this would not have happened if the procurement had been done by the NHS instead, in the same emergency conditions. That may or may not be true, but if it is, then the entity that has messed up is the government, rather than the 'private sector' is it not?

 

[two sheds]

If NHS had done the procurement you'd imagine they'd get PPE that actually met requirements, wouldn't you?

Well yes, I've been saying it's the government's fault. You're hair splitting and trolling now. I've had enough.

 

[teuchter]

If NHS had done the procurement you'd imagine they'd get PPE that actually met requirements, wouldn't you?

Well yes, I've been saying it's the government's fault. You're hair splitting and trolling now. I've had enough.

I'm not splitting hairs - you were claiming that the PPE issues were down to "contracts that were handed over to the private sector". That suggests a bunch of contracts that were previously in the public sector were handed to private sector companies and as a result, inadequate supplies were procured. But I don't see where that happened. Certainly trying to figure out exactly how the whole procurement systems works/worked is quite confusing, and it's not something that I'm an expert on, but you don't seem to know any more about it than I do.

 

[two sheds]

Oh I'm sorry, is this a five minute argument, or the full half hour?

 

[hash tag]

If ever there were proof over the effectiveness of track and trace after all this time
I guess they now have to track down everyone that person has been in contact with
no rush.

Covid-19: Mystery UK person with Brazil variant found

Health officials have also traced the contacts of the person, it is understood.

www.bbc.co.uk