Vaccination rollout vs track & trace: outsourcing and the NHS

[teuchter]

What's the fundamental difference between the way the vaccination roll-out has been organised, and how the track&trace operation was organised?

I keep seeing people attributing the apparent success of the vaccination programme to the fact that it's "run by the NHS" and the failure of track&trace to the fact it was "outsourced".

But as far as I can see, they are both run by the NHS with certain parts of the work involved "outsourced" to private companies.

Can anyone elaborate?

 

[Callie]

Apple's n pears really.

The vaccination system is using NHS trained and experienced staff, established facilities, NHS established logistical networks and is being run and managed solely within NHS teams who already work together. Doing something that I would imagine has been touched upon previously (swine flu) but probably not to the same extent.

Not sure about the test and trace. It's new, might be NHS staff to some degree (second line?) But not necessarily ones that have worked together before in established networks.

I suspect it's also feeding from PHE workflows and contact tracing protocols which are not suitable for this level of t&t programme. We've never tried to do anything like this before.

(ETA I'll bite )

 

[Pickman's model]

What's the fundamental difference between the way the vaccination roll-out has been organised, and how the track&trace operation was organised?

I keep seeing people attributing the apparent success of the vaccination programme to the fact that it's "run by the NHS" and the failure of track&trace to the fact it was "outsourced".

But as far as I can see, they are both run by the NHS with certain parts of the work involved "outsourced" to private companies.

Can anyone elaborate?

this article might help you What happened to the 'world beating' test and trace system and why it's urgently needed now

 

[teuchter]

How much of the vaccine logistics done "by" the NHS? Are they in charge once the vaccine leaves the factory gates, or are they in charge when it arrives at distribution centres, or when it gets to vaccination sites?

 

[teuchter]

(ETA I'll bite )

 

[Pickman's model]

How much of the vaccine logistics done "by" the NHS? Are they in charge once the vaccine leaves the factory gates, or are they in charge when it arrives at distribution centres, or when it gets to vaccination sites?

what do you mean by 'the nhs'?

 

[teuchter]

what do you mean by 'the nhs'?

The question is what other people mean by 'the NHS' when they are talking about things being outsourced or not. Particularly when they are talking about the vaccination programme's success being attributable to it being run by 'the NHS'.

 

[Cid]

I think we need a fairly detailed breakdown of the various contracts and responsibilities involved for this discussion to get much further. It would be great if teuchter , as the thread starter, could provide this.

 

[platinumsage]

Neither are run by the NHS, both are run by the Department of Health and Social Care. The NHS participate in both to some extent.

 

[Pickman's model]

The question is what other people mean by 'the NHS' when they are talking about things being outsourced or not. Particularly when they are talking about the vaccination programme's success being attributable to it being run by 'the NHS'.

But as far as I can see, they are both run by the NHS with certain parts of the work involved "outsourced" to private companies.

what do you mean by 'the nhs'?

 

[teuchter]

I think we need a fairly detailed breakdown of the various contracts and responsibilities involved for this discussion to get much further. It would be great if teuchter , as the thread starter, could provide this.

It would be great, but I can't, and if I could, there would be little point in me starting a thread asking about that very information.

 

[ddraig]

What's the fundamental difference between the way the vaccination roll-out has been organised, and how the track&trace operation was organised?

I keep seeing people attributing the apparent success of the vaccination programme to the fact that it's "run by the NHS" and the failure of track&trace to the fact it was "outsourced".

But as far as I can see, they are both run by the NHS with certain parts of the work involved "outsourced" to private companies.

Can anyone elaborate?

Are you an outsourcer or asset stripper by trade?

 

[teuchter]

Are you an outsourcer or asset stripper by trade?

Great question. Yeah of course I am.

 

[ddraig]

Great question. Yeah of course I am.

It shows!

 

[teuchter]

It shows!

Fascinating as the workings of your great mind might be, do you mind if we just discuss the actual question raised in the OP instead?

 

[Pickman's model]

Fascinating as the workings of your great mind might be, do you mind if we just discuss the actual question raised in the OP instead?

being as you either don't know or can't elucidate what you mean by 'the nhs' we're not going to get much further with this great midden of a thread

 

[platinumsage]

I don't think comparing the two programs is useful. Mass vaccination involving the NHS is normal, whereas as T&T is something that PHE have previously done only with tiny numbers of cases.

 

[teuchter]

I don't think comparing the two programs is useful. Mass vaccination involving the NHS is normal, whereas as T&T is something that PHE have previously done only with tiny numbers of cases.

My feeling is also that it's not useful. But it seems popular.

 

[two sheds]

I don't think comparing the two programs is useful. Mass vaccination involving the NHS is normal, whereas as T&T is something that PHE have previously done only with tiny numbers of cases.

Wouldn't those be test cases that would have helped roll out testing more widely?

One problem has been with the app - government gave out contracts to develop its own then went with the existing Google and Apple apps didn't they?

The vaccination I had went really smoothly - would have thought that it would have been as good to have it done that way for people turning up to be tested. Would presumably have saved a fair amount of money, and money more beneficially spent if pumped into NHS rather than large amount of money given to private companies. For example there was this fiasco: How UK spent £800m on controversial Covid tests for Dominic Cummings scheme

 

[teuchter]

Would presumably have saved a fair amount of money, and money more beneficially spent if pumped into NHS rather than large amount of money given to private companies.

What does that actually mean, though, "pumped into NHS"? What would the NHS then do with that money? We are not talking here about something that's a long term investment aimed at producing something some months or years down the line, we are talking about getting something up and running ASAP. So what would have happened differently?

 

[Pickman's model]

What does that actually mean, though, "pumped into NHS"? What would the NHS then do with that money? We are not talking here about something that's a long term investment aimed at producing something some months or years down the line, we are talking about getting something up and running ASAP. So what would have happened differently?

the nhs would spend that money. what do you think they'd do with it, tuck it under the pillow?

i don't think the nhs could have done worse than the sack of shit that is serco's lacklustre testing 'service'

 

[platinumsage]

Wouldn't those be test cases that would have helped roll out testing more widely?

One problem has been with the app - government gave out contracts to develop its own then went with the existing Google and Apple apps didn't they?

The vaccination I had went really smoothly - would have thought that it would have been as good to have it done that way for people turning up to be tested. Would presumably have saved a fair amount of money, and money more beneficially spent if pumped into NHS rather than large amount of money given to private companies. For example there was this fiasco: How UK spent £800m on controversial Covid tests for Dominic Cummings scheme

PHE simply didn't have the capability to ramp up testing above 3,000 test per day within the required timescale, let alone attempt to trace them all. Involvement of private sector assets was the only way (collecting samples wasn't the major problem, it was processing them). Whether that use of private sector resources could have been entirely managed by DHSC rather than involving private management too is debatable.

 

[two sheds]

Look up the word "pumped*" if you don't understand it. "Given to" if you prefer - rather than pumping it into private companies.

You don't think we're going to need track & trace in the future? The problem with "pumping" lots of money into private companies to do the work (apart from the huge markup they make) is that once this immediate need is over we lose all the experience of the people.

Invest (perhaps better word than pumped, you may want to look that up too) it in the NHS and the expertise is retained for the future.

* (I keep typing pumpted which I actually prefer)

 

[two sheds]

PHE simply didn't have the capability to ramp up testing above 3,000 test per day within the required timescale, let alone attempt to trace them all. Involvement of private sector assets was the only way (collecting samples wasn't the major problem, it was processing them). Whether that use of private sector resources could have been entirely managed by DHSC rather than involving private management too is debatable.

Yes fair point, although they seem to have ramped up the vaccination programme pretty bloody quickly. Employing lots of extra people in NHS would seem more valuable than just farming it out to agencies - they had to learn what to do as well. Then relocate the new people within the NHS when the track & trace effort ramps down, it could do with extra people working there after years of attrition.

I think the processing could have been better done by GPs rather than the credit agencies which seemed a strange decision.

Huge amounts of money were thrown at this - alongside the PPE contract outsourcing - if all that had been thrown at the NHS surely some solution could have been found. The privatized track & trace has performed poorly enogh.

 

[teuchter]

Look up the word "pumped*" if you don't understand it. "Given to" if you prefer - rather than pumping it into private companies.

You don't think we're going to need track & trace in the future? The problem with "pumping" lots of money into private companies to do the work (apart from the huge markup they make) is that once this immediate need is over we lose all the experience of the people.

Invest (perhaps better word than pumped, you may want to look that up too) it in the NHS and the expertise is retained for the future.

* (I keep typing pumpted which I actually prefer)

Right, so you give the money to "the NHS", and tell them they need to set up a track and trace system immediately. Are you proposing that they immediately take on a large number of new staff and set them to it? Where would they find these people? Or do they already have a bunch of people sitting around twiddling their thumbs who happen to have the right knowledge and experience to start setting up a new system?

I would have thought that they would have to contract something of that scale out to a third party. Wouldn't they?

 

[Pickman's model]

Right, so you give the money to "the NHS", and tell them they need to set up a track and trace system immediately. Are you proposing that they immediately take on a large number of new staff and set them to it? Where would they find these people? Or do they already have a bunch of people sitting around twiddling their thumbs who happen to have the right knowledge and experience to start setting up a new system?

I would have thought that they would have to contract something of that scale out to a third party. Wouldn't they?

yes they would have thought that that is what you would have thought.

 

[two sheds]

Well there were loads of nurses they tried to take on at the beginning who as I understand it told the government to fuck off because they'd had such bad experience. With more investment some of them could have been tempted back.

There's a fair number of unemployed people around, too. Matching up their skills to skills required could have been a good first step. Then indeed if there's not enough you'd contract out to a third party. I'm objecting to it all being contracted out to a third party without even trying to do it in house where we have - you know - people with huge experience of medical matters.

How much experience of test&trace did those private companies have before being given the contracts? Did they have to take on a large number of new staff and set them to it? Where did they find these people? Or did they already have a bunch of people sitting around twiddling their thumbs who happened to have the right knowledge and experience to start setting up a new system?

And again the test & trace app they tried to set up failed. So much for them setting up a new system

 

[teuchter]

And again the test & trace app they tried to set up failed. So much for them setting up a new system

Who's "they" in this context?

 

[teuchter]

I'm objecting to it all being contracted out to a third party without even trying to do it in house where we have - you know - people with huge experience of medical matters.

And do you know enough about what happened, to know that this is what happened?

 

[Pickman's model]

Who's "they" in this context?