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redsquirrel said:
Yep agree with all of that Roadkill, you'll have an increasing privatisation of sector. I can also see multi-institution business in the line that the FE and primary/secondary sectors have seen.
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In many ways I think the best analogy for what the university sector is being pushed into becoming is the privatised utilities; private companies with the ability - and the requirement - to behave as such in most respects, but subsidised and heavily regulated, and operating in a more or less controlled market. And it's shit.
 
I'm not sure many stretched unis would want to merge with a near bankrupt one. I would also guess arts and humanities would be first against the wall. I imagine they take little for research and hmgovt would not be keen on them.
 
hash tag said:
I'm not sure many stretched unis would want to merge with a near bankrupt one. I would also guess arts and humanities would be first against the wall. I imagine they take little for research and hmgovt would not be keen on them.
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Not at the moment, but when their own futures are looking more secure they might, so long as they have the freedom - which they would - to close the bits they think won't pay. And yes, that'd be the arts and humanities first.
 
hash tag said:
I'm not sure many stretched unis would want to merge with a near bankrupt one. I would also guess arts and humanities would be first against the wall. I imagine they take little for research and hmgovt would not be keen on them.
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And they teach people to think.
At UWE, economics went to maths, and social sciences and politics got absorbed by life sciences.
 
For this exam period, final year arts - and presumably design-tech students are going to be awarded their degrees and then be allowed to return to work on their portfolios ...
 
gentlegreen said:
At UWE, economics went to maths, and social sciences and politics got absorbed by life sciences.
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Tbf, departmental jiggery-pokery isn't itself a symptom of marketisation. Universities have split and amalgamated departments, hived growth areas out of existing ones and even closed departments altogether for as long as they've existed in their modern form. There's a lot more emphasis on closure than anything else these days, though, and it's driven not so much by the rise and fall of disciplines in intellectual terms as by their earning potential.
 
Lots of social distancing plans going on now for us for when we can return. Not sure if the capacity numbers will have an impact on how many can enroll. One would think it would, but you've still got the problem of 2nd and 3rd years that are already here. Assuming they all want to continue, potential for some 2nd years may be asked to take a year out and rejoin with what would be the smaller 1st year intake for 20/21 to then bring it back to full capacity almost for 21/22

How many people can we safely have in a class room, how can we stagger them in, what equipment do they need to be supplied with. What can be taught remotely,, students having remote access to powerful computers that run autocad software and the like. Can classes be run more than once due to severe drop in capacity that rooms can have. Work that is usually done in pairs how can that be completed etc etc.
 
cybershot said:
Lots of social distancing plans going on now for us for when we can return. Not sure if the capacity numbers will have an impact on how many can enroll. One would think it would, but you've still got the problem of 2nd and 3rd years that are already here. Assuming they all want to continue, potential for some 2nd years may be asked to take a year out and rejoin with what would be the smaller 1st year intake for 20/21 to then bring it back to full capacity almost for 21/22

How many people can we safely have in a class room, how can we stagger them in, what equipment do they need to be supplied with. What can be taught remotely,, students having remote access to powerful computers that run autocad software and the like. Can classes be run more than once due to severe drop in capacity that rooms can have. Work that is usually done in pairs how can that be completed etc etc.
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Sounds like you're getting a lot more info than has reached my end of campus...!
 
Roadkill said:
That's a good point, and will doubtless be another factor in the calculations to come. Despite coronavirus, Bojo still isn't going to want to piss off his newly-won voters in the 'red wall.'

I think the other possibility that isn't being talked about enough is mergers. All the focus is on complete closures - understandably so - but I don't think there's anything to prevent a financially sound university from effectively taking over a weaker one. Plus, the sector is fragmenting geographically, up to a point. Regional consortia of universities are working together more than they once did, and conversely rivalries between nearby institutions are much stronger than they were because they're competing for local students. There's even been some limited muscling in on others' geographical turf. In that climate it's easy to see how acquiring an outstation in a new and potentially lucrative area (or which has a specialism you lack: you can 'rationalise' the rest!), or simply eliminating a competitor could be an attractive move to the managements of 'stronger' institutions. In principle I don't know of any reason why it couldn't happen, although there probably would be serious regulatory and practical barriers, which may partly be why it has not happened yet.
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So you think there'll be financially sound universities? :D

Any that are or rather were in a reasonable state are much less likely to be when the dust settles
 
cybershot said:
Lots of social distancing plans going on now for us for when we can return. Not sure if the capacity numbers will have an impact on how many can enroll. One would think it would, but you've still got the problem of 2nd and 3rd years that are already here. Assuming they all want to continue, potential for some 2nd years may be asked to take a year out and rejoin with what would be the smaller 1st year intake for 20/21 to then bring it back to full capacity almost for 21/22

How many people can we safely have in a class room, how can we stagger them in, what equipment do they need to be supplied with. What can be taught remotely,, students having remote access to powerful computers that run autocad software and the like. Can classes be run more than once due to severe drop in capacity that rooms can have. Work that is usually done in pairs how can that be completed etc etc.
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Yep my son already telling me he can't realistically continue to the third year of his uni course.He is studying film-making-not much he feels he can usefully do for the forseeable so he's taking next year out.Guess he won't be the only one.
 
Pickman's model said:
So you think there'll be financially sound universities? :D

Any that are or rather were in a reasonable state are much less likely to be when the dust settles
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Well, that depends on whether there's some form of bailout, and on balance I still think that's more likely than not, if only to prevent an uncontrolled collapse. And afterwards some institutions will still be in a much stronger position than others.
 
beesonthewhatnow said:
Sounds like you're getting a lot more info than has reached my end of campus...!
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How much of it chinese whispers who knows.

I'm glad at least they are topping up the 80% so everyone gets a full 100% salary should there be furloughed staff, which in all fairness seems reasonable for people that literally cannot do much from home.

So far despite what a lot of others are posting on this tread, our place almost seems to coming out like a breath of fresh air, which is, erm, weird! haha. Let's hope it keeps up hey, but i suspect our coffers are somewhat larger than some of the others institutes who are posting on here, but there's no doubt that's going to end up taking a huge hit and the price to pay for that instead could be seen further down the line, or even years from now. So there's that to consider despite all the smiley faces and what seems to be an appearance on the BBC local news almost every few days for all the additional research/testing and provisions of PPE for the local NHS trusts and councils.

As for me, I'm in one of those weird unique positions. I've not long moved from central IT to being based in a fairly technology intense building that needs dedicated on site IT Staff, so get wind of things from an IT Services and Academia perspective. I'm probably more busy than ever if I'm honest, and have been asked to babysit additional services and line manage more people while others have been put onto a fasttrack project to release stuff that should have been released 2 years ago if I'm honest, (funny how all the red tape goes out the window all of a sudden) if we had of, we'd have been in a much better place remote working wise than we are now. All be it, I think we did pretty well working with what we had and scaling it all up to increase the capacity by 400% in the time that we did have! We can pull our fingers out of our arses when we want too!
 
Roadkill said:
Well, that depends on whether there's some form of bailout, and on balance I still think that's more likely than not, if only to prevent an uncontrolled collapse. And afterwards some institutions will still be in a much stronger position than others.
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Tbh it doesn't depend on whether there's a bailout, it depends on what happens with student numbers, and, especially in the case of the Russell group, foreign student numbers over the next few years. It may well be that the people who might have gone from China or India to ucl or to lse may decide instead to attend uni in their own countries instead, rather than risk being trapped abroad. Equally taking on a shedload of debt in the middle of a great depression may not seem such a bright idea to today's 15, 16 and 17 year olds. And if student numbers are down any stability from a bailout may be fleeting.
 
Pickman's model said:
Tbh it doesn't depend on whether there's a bailout, it depends on what happens with student numbers, and, especially in the case of the Russell group, foreign student numbers over the next few years. It may well be that the people who might have gone from China or India to ucl or to lse may decide instead to attend uni in their own countries instead, rather than risk being trapped abroad. Equally taking on a shedload of debt in the middle of a great depression may not seem such a bright idea to today's 15, 16 and 17 year olds. And if student numbers are down any stability from a bailout may be fleeting.
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Oh aye, can't disagree with that. A bailout can only stop an immediate collapse, not deal with the bigger and longer-term issues the sector is facing. It's pretty clear student numbers are going to be well down next year: the real question is what happens thereafter. But it remains the case that some universities have the financial resources to weather a prolonged storm, whilst others - a majority - do not.
 
Roadkill said:
Oh aye, can't disagree with that. A bailout can only stop an immediate collapse, not deal with the bigger and longer-term issues the sector is facing. It's pretty clear student numbers are going to be well down next year: the real question is what happens thereafter. But it remains the case that some universities have the financial resources to weather a prolonged storm, whilst others - a majority - do not.
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Yeh your Oxford or Cambridge perhaps. but as for even prestigious colleges in the University of London, one has I know demanded savings of £1m in its library service this year pre-cv while another last summer sent a series of all-staff emails highlighting the importance of recruiting every possible student to the financial position of the institution, and making clear this would remain the case in future years. I doubt these are isolated cases.
 
Pickman's model said:
Yeh your Oxford or Cambridge perhaps. but as for even prestigious colleges in the University of London, one has I know demanded savings of £1m in its library service this year pre-cv while another last summer sent a series of all-staff emails highlighting the importance of recruiting every possible student to the financial position of the institution, and making clear this would remain the case in future years. I doubt these are isolated cases.
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They aren't. Quite a lot of institutions have been making cutbacks and redundancies because of falling numbers, and word on the street is that in the last couple of years there've been a few quiet bailouts of institutions on the edge; two on the south coast and one in the north-west, if I remember rightly. As for the University of London, I take it you're referring to SOAS...?

edit As for Oxbridge, they're just in a different world. A friend of mine at Oxford was part of a working group on improving classroom technology a couple of years ago, and the budget they were working with just for screens and projectors was bigger than the entire budget of some mid-sized red-bricks.
 
Roadkill said:
They aren't. Quite a lot of institutions have been making cutbacks and redundancies because of falling numbers, and word on the street is that in the last couple of years there've been a few quiet bailouts of institutions on the edge; two on the south coast and one in the north-west, if I remember rightly. As for the University of London, I take it you're referring to SOAS...?
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Not Soas, but not a million miles away
 
In more hopeful news, my university submitted our first two COVID-19 Urgency Grant social science research proposals (both mine) - the first on the effect of using different metaphors (war, journey, sports, fire) in public health communication; the second on supporting the move to an online curriculum for secondary education in the UK, Canada and South Korea. We've already submitted 20+ clinical trials & public health applications. Let's see what happens now, results in four weeks' time.....
 
This thread made me worried because I'm meant to be working for a UK uni this summer but hadn't got my contract. Was hoping it was a way into full time employment and moving back to the UK. But it looks like everything is moving online and they will still need me.
 
Pickman's model said:
Not Soas, but not a million miles away
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London. Russell Group. Imperial are one of the wealthier institutions I imagine. Having seen two or three sides to Imperial, they have some very wealthy students won't be racking up debts Plus they get research funding thrown at them.
 
I didn't see it as I am not bought a paper every day. I wouldn't for one minute consider Imperial to be poor, but depends on how you define poor and wealthy in the terms of a Uni. They were certainly not short on income, but going forward? Any cuts they make are just being cautious. My heart won't bleed for Prof. Gast who is probably one of the best paid in the UK.
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hash tag said:
London. Russell Group. Imperial are one of the wealthier institutions I imagine. Having seen two or three sides to Imperial, they have some very wealthy students won't be racking up debts Plus they get research funding thrown at them.
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Research funding isn't really where the money is tbh. It's not going to begin to cover for a significant reduction in overseas student fees.
 
There in lies another elephant in the room. How much in research fees and how many overseas students lost because of brexit...then Add the virus to it.
 
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