Universities

[platinumsage]

Strange that many small institutes listed separately but not the colleges of Oxford or Cambridge

Not really. Students attending Oxbridge colleges will study for exactly the same degrees as students in other colleges of that university. A "Theology, Religion, and Philosophy of Religion" undergraduate from Queens' will take the same exams as a "Theology, Religion, and Philosophy of Religion" undergraduate Peterhouse. On the other hand for example, all of the courses offered by London Business School differ from courses offered by the business schools of other colleges within the University of London (which is basically just a logo and library these days, the colleges mainly awarding their own degrees).

 

[Pickman's model]

Not really. Students attending Oxbridge colleges will study for exactly the same degrees as students in other colleges of that university. A "Theology, Religion, and Philosophy of Religion" undergraduate from Queens' will take the same exams as a "Theology, Religion, and Philosophy of Religion" undergraduate Peterhouse. On the other hand for example, all of the courses offered by London Business School differ from courses offered by the business schools of other colleges within the University of London (which is basically just a logo and library these days, the colleges mainly awarding their own degrees).

I think you'll find that while the role of the u of l is diminished in comparison with the past, it is rather more than just a logo and library. Although many institutions have and indeed use separate degree awarding powers, others while having such powers continue to award u of l degrees, eg birkbeck. In addition, the u of l retains the school of advanced study incorporating eg the warburg, institute of advanced legal studies, ihr etc. The university also operates its distance learning programme of degrees which can be taken anywhere in the world. The u of l not as irrelevant as you suggest being as in recent years city university has abandoned its own university status to become a college within it.

 

[Roadkill]

A few weeks ago Mrs T was preparing to apply for promotion; last night she started fearing redundancy.
Radio 4 this morning was reporting redundancies and Uni's going bust. Sorry, I don't have access to the FT
View attachment 208305

FFS. I've just survived one redundancy round and really don't want to be pitched straight into another. I was proceeding on the assumption that with government slinging money at everything in sight to support the economy a bailout for universities was highly likely, but that assumption isn't looking so safe today...

 

[aqua]

Anyone else read yesterday's WONKHE update that included some modelling of the financial impact on individual institutions?

This

 

[hash tag]

I gather they have forecast enormous cuts in revenue, as much as 50% or more from September.

 

[Roadkill]

I gather they have forecast enormous cuts in revenue, as much as 50% or more from September.

Tbh I don't think it's worth even trying to put a figure on it atm because it's all so speculative and unpredictable, at least from the point of view of individual institutions. It'll be the Russell Group that's hit hardest by the loss of international student fees, but they'll then seek to compensate by fishing even more aggressively than they already do in the pool of UK applicants. Plus, another thing that does seem to be emerging - based on purely anecdotal evidence - is that more students are choosing to stay local for next year, presumably because of fears over further lockdowns, potential problems with accommodation, and so on. Whatever the figure, though, it's fucking serious, and without significant government help there's going to be a hell of a contraction in the sector. Much as this government appears to hate universities, I'm not sure they want to deal with the fallout from their collapse en masse - especially in areas where they're a particularly big part of the local economy - so I still reckon the odds are in favour of some kind of bailout, but how large and with what conditions attached, God only knows.

 

[hash tag]

The Russell Group are probably the best well off, will usually be able to attract students for overseas and can earn a fair bit for research.
there are of course the overseas campuses to consider. Wonder how they will fare?

 

[Roadkill]

The Russell Group are probably the best well off, will usually be able to attract students for overseas and can earn a fair bit for research.
there are of course the overseas campuses to consider. Wonder how they will fare?

Depends where they are to an extent, what local conditions are like and for how long they persist, as well as how successful they are/have been. Another unpredictable element in the whole mess. I can't help thinking this might be the end for some of the more marginal ones, although that's based on no more than gut feeling.

 

[zahir]

Can we expect to see universities closing with students unable to finish courses?

 

[chilango]

I'm not sure Roadkill. I suspect there will be a fair few figures that for various reasons will want a significant cut in the number of Universities and graduates. To increase the scarcity, and thus value, of educational capital and credentials.

Some out of sheer class warfare, others to realign it with the gig economy.

Others will disagree of course and will want to maintain the myth of social mobility and the grip of debt on future generations.

We'll see if a winner emerges...

 

[chilango]

Can we expect to see universities closing with students unable to finish courses?

Dunno. But don't rule it out.

 

[flypanam]

Anyone else been placed on furlough under the Job retention scheme? i got notice on Tuesday that I've been selected.

 

[Roadkill]

I'm not sure Roadkill. I suspect there will be a fair few figures that for various reasons will want a significant cut in the number of Universities and graduates. To increase the scarcity, and thus value, of educational capital and credentials.

Some out of sheer class warfare, others to realign it with the gig economy.

Others will disagree of course and will want to maintain the myth of social mobility and the grip of debt on future generations.

We'll see if a winner emerges...

Agreed, although I still can't help thinking that regardless of whatever ideological commitment these bastards might have to shrinking the sector and limiting HE - especially the humanities - to the middle class, realpolitik may well win out for the time being.

 

[aqua]

Can we expect to see universities closing with students unable to finish courses?

No, I wouldn't have thought so. I was of the understanding that all universities have essentially a programme back up plan for such things so if a student can't finish at x university their studies transfer but maybe that is only for some programmes? Not sure.

e2a sorry that was about the student, yes I absolutely expect some Uni's to go to the wall after this sadly

 

[Roadkill]

No, I wouldn't have thought so. I was of the understanding that all universities have essentially a programme back up plan for such things so if a student can't finish at x university their studies transfer but maybe that is only for some programmes? Not sure.

They do. Under the Higher Education and Research Act 2011 all universities have to have a plan for institutional failure in place.

 

[aqua]

They do. Under the Higher Education and Research Act 2011 all universities have to have a plan for institutional failure in place.

Good to know I'm not going mental at least

 

[Roadkill]

Just seen this in the Gaurdian - ministers split over bailout package.

 

[Cerv]

Anyone else been placed on furlough under the Job retention scheme? i got notice on Tuesday that I've been selected.

not yet, but will be in a few weeks.
in order to desperately save cash all support departments have been instructed to furlough some staff. so we’re taking 3 week turns amongst our team. thankfully our manager is backing us up when it comes to people expecting 100% output from 80% of the team.

They do. Under the Higher Education and Research Act 2011 all universities have to have a plan for institutional failure in place.

a bit scared to see how that would play out in practice if multiple unis are going bust at once. if the plan says you’ve got agreements with X, Y & Z to easily transfer credit, but X has gone under too while Z is at capacity from taking on other uni's students it could rapidly fall apart.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Talk of furlough being looked at in our daily update email today, with the assurance that anyone who is will still receive full pay, the uni topping up the other 20%.

 

[chilango]

Was reading some (old) research papers today arguing that the neoliberal marketization of education requires the possibility of institutions failing in order to drive the desired comoey.

 

[flypanam]

not yet, but will be in a few weeks.
in order to desperately save cash all support departments have been instructed to furlough some staff. so we’re taking 3 week turns amongst our team. thankfully our manager is backing us up when it comes to people expecting 100% output from 80% of the team.


a bit scared to see how that would play out in practice if multiple unis are going bust at once. if the plan says you’ve got agreements with X, Y & Z to easily transfer credit, but X has gone under too while Z is at capacity from taking on other uni's students it could rapidly fall apart.

In our case, all the part time library assistants, library assistants, senior LA and myself, assistant librarian (cataloguing and metadata) are being furloughed for an unspecified time, 3 weeks to 3 months for all i know. It feels that my institution which is lukewarm on the library and haven't sen the unforeseen consequences of furloughing the very people who support student learning and research most at the end of the academic year.

Certain figures in the SMT have been arguing for a number of years that google has replaced libraries, an uninformed and stupid opinion but in a dictatorial place of work seniority is listened to, not experience.

 

[flypanam]

dp

 

[hash tag]

it's not just Bolton, Sunderland and Wolverhampton that are risk; I would Hazard a guess at one or two more.
i won't state the bleedin obvious about future politicians, scientists, researchers Etc.

 

[Idris2002]

Was reading some (old) research papers today arguing that the neoliberal marketization of education requires the possibility of institutions failing in order to drive the desired comoey.

Were any of these by Cris Shore?

 

[Roadkill]

Was reading some (old) research papers today arguing that the neoliberal marketization of education requires the possibility of institutions failing in order to drive the desired comoey.

Oh that's absolutely the case. The 2011 Act was all about making universities act like private companies - albeit fairly heavily regulated ones - with the threat of bankruptcy lurking in the background for those that don't succeed or don't play the game.

Of course, it's that which makes all the bleating about unconditional offers and the rest of it from the same quarters so hilariously hypocritical. They wanted universities to behave like private firms, and then when universities do what any sensible firm would do and try to protect their future income, they whine about it. But then, consistency and logic were never the right's strong points.

a bit scared to see how that would play out in practice if multiple unis are going bust at once. if the plan says you’ve got agreements with X, Y & Z to easily transfer credit, but X has gone under too while Z is at capacity from taking on other uni's students it could rapidly fall apart.

It'd be catastrophic, with ramifications way beyond universities themselves. The system's designed for the market-driven failure of limited numbers of institutions, not an exogenous shock that poses an existential threat to most of the sector.

 

[chilango]

Were any of these by Cris Shore?

Nope.

Mostly Reay and Ball on schools.

 

[redsquirrel]

Was reading some (old) research papers today arguing that the neoliberal marketization of education requires the possibility of institutions failing in order to drive the desired comoey.

That's been the line for some time. However, despite the fact that some libertarians favour it it suffers from the same problem (though to a lesser degree) as having train companies fail, the fact is that if a university does fail then the government is going to have to step in. That's especially true in certain locations, such as around those seats the Tories gained in 2019, where you have universities as a major employer.

 

[Roadkill]

That's been the line for some time. However, despite the fact that some libertarians favour it it suffers from the same problem (though to a lesser degree) as having train companies fail, the fact is that if a university does fail then the government is going to have to step in. That's especially true in certain locations, such as around those seats the Tories gained in 2019, where you have universities as a major employer.

That's a good point, and will doubtless be another factor in the calculations to come. Despite coronavirus, Bojo still isn't going to want to piss off his newly-won voters in the 'red wall.'

I think the other possibility that isn't being talked about enough is mergers. All the focus is on complete closures - understandably so - but I don't think there's anything to prevent a financially sound university from effectively taking over a weaker one. Plus, the sector is fragmenting geographically, up to a point. Regional consortia of universities are working together more than they once did, and conversely rivalries between nearby institutions are much stronger than they were because they're competing for local students. There's even been some limited muscling in on others' geographical turf. In that climate it's easy to see how acquiring an outstation in a new and potentially lucrative area (or which has a specialism you lack: you can 'rationalise' the rest!), or simply eliminating a competitor could be an attractive move to the managements of 'stronger' institutions. In principle I don't know of any reason why it couldn't happen, although there probably would be serious regulatory and practical barriers, which may partly be why it has not happened yet.

 

[chilango]

That's been the line for some time. However, despite the fact that some libertarians favour it it suffers from the same problem (though to a lesser degree) as having train companies fail, the fact is that if a university does fail then the government is going to have to step in. That's especially true in certain locations, such as around those seats the Tories gained in 2019, where you have universities as a major employer.

Indeed, what was that Thatcher quote about the soul again? - ‘ECONOMICS ARE THE METHOD: THE OBJECT IS TO CHANGE THE SOUL’

It's ideological rather pragmatic economics, as someone famous once said though ..."money talks and bullshit walks". We'll see how far they can push it.

 

[redsquirrel]

Yep agree with all of that Roadkill, you'll have an increasing privatisation of sector. I can also see multi-institution business in the line that the FE and primary/secondary sectors have seen.