Universal Credit/Benefits system

[Puddy_Tat]

Idiots have made an appointment for me for next week even though I've told them I'm working full time!

haven't you signed off if you're working full time?

i know there was going to be the concept of being expected / hassled to look for a full time job if you are only working part time and claiming UC, but not sure this makes a lot of sense

or do you now get this shit if you're claiming the equivalent of housing benefit even if you're working full time and your rent is high enough for you still to qualify? (i'm a long time out of the game and i really don't understand UC)

if there's complicated / personal circumstances here then feel free not to answer, or tell me to bugger off and mind my own business

 

[LeytonCatLady]

haven't you signed off if you're working full time?

i know there was going to be the concept of being expected / hassled to look for a full time job if you are only working part time and claiming UC, but not sure this makes a lot of sense

or do you now get this shit if you're claiming the equivalent of housing benefit even if you're working full time and your rent is high enough for you still to qualify? (i'm a long time out of the game and i really don't understand UC)

if there's complicated / personal circumstances here then feel free not to answer, or tell me to bugger off and mind my own business

No, it's fine. With Universal Credit, you don't sign off like you did with JSA, rather they're meant to put your claim on pause. If you're working part time and getting top ups, they expect you to either increase your hours, look for a second job or something full time. But if you're working full time, you're not expected to attend appointments. Because the taper rate is 55p for each pound you earn, some months I might end up getting a fiver UC left if it's a four week month (I'm paid weekly by the agency). But my assessment period just gone had five paydays in it so my Feb UC is 0. I just don't get what they're playing at.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

I just don't get what they're playing at.

i wouldn't be surprised if they don't know either...

 

[Elpenor]

No, it's fine. With Universal Credit, you don't sign off like you did with JSA, rather they're meant to put your claim on pause. If you're working part time and getting top ups, they expect you to either increase your hours, look for a second job or something full time. But if you're working full time, you're not expected to attend appointments. Because the taper rate is 55p for each pound you earn, some months I might end up getting a fiver UC left if it's a four week month (I'm paid weekly by the agency). But my assessment period just gone had five paydays in it so my Feb UC is 0. I just don't get what they're playing at.

Weekly paid doesn’t fit well with UC as LeytonCatLady says. I don’t believe they designed it to fit non calendar month pay periods.

The earnings they get from employers comes via HMRC and is reported monthly - and there will be either 4 or 5 pay days in a month depending on how the days fall. You wouldn’t get this problem as much with being paid fortnightly or lunar, or at all with being paid monthly!

(I suspect that one way to get extra UC might be to “forget” to submit one weeks timesheet in the four week month, then submit it in the 5 week month. You’d not get an UC for the 5 week month anyway, but you’d get a bit more for the 4 week month. Not sure if that’s practical or wise to do though.)

 

[nagapie]

A friend of mine gets paid 10 days early in Dec and got a lump sum in January because he hadn't been paid for 7 weeks.

 

[LeytonCatLady]

Appointment finally cancelled. How hard was it, DWP?!

In the end, the guy I had the appointment with phoned me himself and said he deals with claimants aged 18 - 24. Well I'm 35, so I blatantly shouldn't be in that group. It turned out to be an admin error, just as I'd thought. He initially accused me of not reporting my wages, but soon shut up when I told him to look at my statement which showed £0 due to "Earnings reported by your employer." and that he should know that's how UC works. I had to go into a work meeting at that point and he said he'd ring me back. He didn't but when I checked my journal, my to-do list is empty and the appointment is FINALLY cancelled. Talk about going round by Australia to get to Piccadilly!

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

nagapie paying people early can make people worse off, if it brings the payment forward into a different 'assessment period'.

Eg, when I started a job a few years ago, I was due to receive my last benefits payment on 21st of the month, relating to an assessment period from the 15th of the previous month to the 14th of that month.

I'd started work on the 10th of the month, so should have been due UC for 15th of previous month to 9th of the month, so about three and a bit weeks money.

Except my new job was paid in the middle of the month, two weeks in arrears and two weeks in advance. So I was due to be paid on 15th, nearly three weeks money.

But we got paid a day early in my job. I panicked, thinking I was about to lose three a bit weeks' money because it had been paid to me in the wrong UC 'assessment period'. Luckily, the HR person checked and it was reported to HMRC on 15th, which was the day it was due. If they had reported the payment on 14th, their paying me early would have cost me a few hundred pounds in lost benefits. The HR person was horrified when I brought it to her attention and asked her to double-check.

Being paid a day either side of an assessment period can make the difference between someone being paid or not being paid. And when you're on a very low income and/or when you've just started a job and have additional expenses, like cost of commute, lunches, etc, then you can end up losing out and getting into debt.

My current employer paid people early in December. We're usually paid on the last working day of the month, but they paid us just before Christmas, which might've messed up the finances of some of my colleagues for anyone in receipt of UC if they were paid in the wrong assessment period and as a result their income was too high to receive benefits.

It's a terrible system for people who's work payday is out of sync with their UC assessment period and also people with fluctuating incomes. It's good in that you don't have to sign off and on and off and on again if you get temporary work, but it can mean that it sometimes looks like you've been paid twice in some months and so you don't get any top up benefits.

iirc, there was a court case about this anomaly, about how it disproportionately affects single mothers, because single mothers are more likely to be having benefits topping up their income while working.

 

[Elpenor]

nagapie paying people early can make people worse off, if it brings the payment forward into a different 'assessment period'.

Eg, when I started a job a few years ago, I was due to receive my last benefits payment on 21st of the month, relating to an assessment period from the 15th of the previous month to the 14th of that month.

I'd started work on the 10th of the month, so should have been due UC for 15th of previous month to 9th of the month, so about three and a bit weeks money.

Except my new job was paid in the middle of the month, two weeks in arrears and two weeks in advance. So I was due to be paid on 15th, nearly three weeks money.

But we got paid a day early in my job. I panicked, thinking I was about to lose three a bit weeks' money because it had been paid to me in the wrong UC 'assessment period'. Luckily, the HR person checked and it was reported to HMRC on 15th, which was the day it was due. If they had reported the payment on 14th, their paying me early would have cost me a few hundred pounds in lost benefits. The HR person was horrified when I brought it to her attention and asked her to double-check.

Being paid a day either side of an assessment period can make the difference between someone being paid or not being paid. And when you're on a very low income and/or when you've just started a job and have additional expenses, like cost of commute, lunches, etc, then you can end up losing out and getting into debt.

My current employer paid people early in December. We're usually paid on the last working day of the month, but they paid us just before Christmas, which might've messed up the finances of some of my colleagues for anyone in receipt of UC if they were paid in the wrong assessment period and as a result their income was too high to receive benefits.

It's a terrible system for people who's work payday is out of sync with their UC assessment period and also people with fluctuating incomes. It's good in that you don't have to sign off and on and off and on again if you get temporary work, but it can mean that it sometimes looks like you've been paid twice in some months and so you don't get any top up benefits.

iirc, there was a court case about this anomaly, about how it disproportionately affects single mothers, because single mothers are more likely to be having benefits topping up their income while working.

https://www.att.org.uk/employers/we...everything-–-payday-universal-credit-payments

RTI and Universal Credit « Entitlement to Universal credit « Guidance « Universal Credit

Some details in the above links

This is / was a bug within payroll software, and the data sent to UC showed the actual pay day not the contractual pay day.

Payday is often brought forward due to falling on a weekend, bank holiday etc (and often for Christmas).

Now both dates are reported - at least in the software I used in 2019 but hopefully by all software providers as it should have been a fairly simple change. So I hope it didn’t affect any of your colleagues AnnO'Neemus - assuming the pay calendar in the software has been set up correctly.

 

[wemakeyousoundb]

nagapie paying people early can make people worse off, if it brings the payment forward into a different 'assessment period'.

Eg, when I started a job a few years ago, I was due to receive my last benefits payment on 21st of the month, relating to an assessment period from the 15th of the previous month to the 14th of that month.

I'd started work on the 10th of the month, so should have been due UC for 15th of previous month to 9th of the month, so about three and a bit weeks money.

Except my new job was paid in the middle of the month, two weeks in arrears and two weeks in advance. So I was due to be paid on 15th, nearly three weeks money.

But we got paid a day early in my job. I panicked, thinking I was about to lose three a bit weeks' money because it had been paid to me in the wrong UC 'assessment period'. Luckily, the HR person checked and it was reported to HMRC on 15th, which was the day it was due. If they had reported the payment on 14th, their paying me early would have cost me a few hundred pounds in lost benefits. The HR person was horrified when I brought it to her attention and asked her to double-check.

Being paid a day either side of an assessment period can make the difference between someone being paid or not being paid. And when you're on a very low income and/or when you've just started a job and have additional expenses, like cost of commute, lunches, etc, then you can end up losing out and getting into debt.

My current employer paid people early in December. We're usually paid on the last working day of the month, but they paid us just before Christmas, which might've messed up the finances of some of my colleagues for anyone in receipt of UC if they were paid in the wrong assessment period and as a result their income was too high to receive benefits.

It's a terrible system for people who's work payday is out of sync with their UC assessment period and also people with fluctuating incomes. It's good in that you don't have to sign off and on and off and on again if you get temporary work, but it can mean that it sometimes looks like you've been paid twice in some months and so you don't get any top up benefits.

iirc, there was a court case about this anomaly, about how it disproportionately affects single mothers, because single mothers are more likely to be having benefits topping up their income while working.

I have a similar issue being self employed, so I schedule my invoices to be sent at midninght on the 2nd at this is the last day of my UC assessment.

And great to hear the idiotic system finally ate it's own tail LeytonCatLady , enjoy your day off.

 

[nagapie]

Obviously being paid late just moves the problem further down the line but when you're in debt, a lump sum that you can worry about at a later date often seems like a good idea.
It's a terrible system. My employee wants to work more but doesn't see the point (I don't pay her badly and give good holiday and sickness etc but I just don't have a lot of hours for her).

 

[LeytonCatLady]

I was supposed to have my weekly UC appointment this afternoon at 16:00 but the coach (not my usual one, she's on annual leave) rang me at 11:25 from an 0800 number. I picked up, not expecting them, and we had a five minute conversation about my job searching activities. She sounded happy with that and said I didn't need to come in this afternoon. She's booked my next week's appointment but the original one for this afternoon is also still outstanding and she hasn't yet marked me as having attended. I've sent a message explaining the above and included the exact time I was called and the number she rang from. My question is, has anyone else had this happen to them? Am I being paranoid in worrying it might be a trick to say "This person didn't attend so we'll stop her money"? If they haven't updated my info by 3pm, I'll go down anyway at the scheduled time and show them my call log, and then at least the CCTV will prove I was there! Maybe I'm overthinking it, but you hear so many dirty tricks these people play, no matter how nice they seem.

 

[BristolEcho]

I was supposed to have my weekly UC appointment this afternoon at 16:00 but the coach (not my usual one, she's on annual leave) rang me at 11:25 from an 0800 number. I picked up, not expecting them, and we had a five minute conversation about my job searching activities. She sounded happy with that and said I didn't need to come in this afternoon. She's booked my next week's appointment but the original one for this afternoon is also still outstanding and she hasn't yet marked me as having attended. I've sent a message explaining the above and included the exact time I was called and the number she rang from. My question is, has anyone else had this happen to them? Am I being paranoid in worrying it might be a trick to say "This person didn't attend so we'll stop her money"? If they haven't updated my info by 3pm, I'll go down anyway at the scheduled time and show them my call log, and then at least the CCTV will prove I was there! Maybe I'm overthinking it, but you hear so many dirty tricks these people play, no matter how nice they seem.

I suspect it's an error, but really don't blame you for feeling cautious and worried about it. It's the environment they've created. Probably best to go down just in case if you are worried.

 

[BristolEcho]

That being said if your next appointments on there I'm assuming they wouldn't usually book that without your previous one being attended so that along with your evidence is probably fine. Wouldn't blame you for going down though.

 

[LeytonCatLady]

That being said if your next appointments on there I'm assuming they wouldn't usually book that without your previous one being attended so that along with your evidence is probably fine. Wouldn't blame you for going down though.

Well I have to go out and I'll be going past the Jobcentre anyway, so it can't hurt. I spoke with the call centre, who confirmed the coach had made a note of her conversation with me, including all the jobs I'd applied for this week, and it's probably just because the system won't allow them to mark you as having attended before the actual time. That makes sense, as in the past when I've used the journal to report starting work, it won't let me do it until the actual start date, so that's probably valid. The call centre bloke explained I should be covered, and if I was to get sanctioned, a Mandatory Reconsideration would overturn it pretty quickly!

 

[LeytonCatLady]

UPDATE: I went down there but checked my UC account once more before going into the building and she's marked me as attended today. So all that worry was for nothing! Still, I'd definitely advise anyone to double and triple check if you're not sure, because if the coach is a decent person they'll understand why you're being careful, and if they are trying to trick you, you're showing you know what they're up to.

 

[Elpenor]

Well I have to go out and I'll be going past the Jobcentre anyway, so it can't hurt. I spoke with the call centre, who confirmed the coach had made a note of her conversation with me, including all the jobs I'd applied for this week, and it's probably just because the system won't allow them to mark you as having attended before the actual time. That makes sense, as in the past when I've used the journal to report starting work, it won't let me do it until the actual start date, so that's probably valid. The call centre bloke explained I should be covered, and if I was to get sanctioned, a Mandatory Reconsideration would overturn it pretty quickly!

Yes I found I had to report changes on or after the day it took place.

 

[LeytonCatLady]

Hey guys, be aware that scammers may be spoofing the DWP outbound number - 0800 0232635. I have had genuine calls from the Jobcentre on this number before, but yesterday got a missed call I wasn't expecting and there was no message in my journal. Also, neither my coach nor the call centre could see any record in the notes of anyone trying to ring me. After some googling, it sounds like there's a scam on the rise where the fraudster spoof the DWP number. Be careful, and if you get a call like that, ask them to send a message through your UC journal so you know it's them. Anyone genuine won't mind being asked to do this. Sorry to sound alarmist but scammers really are getting more and more clever and I'd hate for anybody to be caught out.


I have sent the following journal message in the hope the Jobcentre will warn claimants (and also to cover my back on the off chance it was genuine so they can't sanction me for not answering a call I didn't hear due to walking along a busy main road at the time):

Good afternoon, I had a missed call today at 11:21 from 0800 0232635, which comes up online as a DWP number. However, I have not been sent any messages in my journal, and neither my coach nor the Universal Credit call centre are aware of anybody trying to contact me as there were no notes made. It seems most likely I was called in error, however there have recently been stories in the press of scammers spoofing the DWP number in order to get people's bank details. Maybe this could be cascaded to claimants so they are aware? In the meantime, you can always send me a journal message if you need to contact me for any reason.

 

[wemakeyousoundb]

Hey guys, be aware that scammers may be spoofing the DWP outbound number - 0800 0232635. I have had genuine calls from the Jobcentre on this number before, but yesterday got a missed call I wasn't expecting and there was no message in my journal. Also, neither my coach nor the call centre could see any record in the notes of anyone trying to ring me. After some googling, it sounds like there's a scam on the rise where the fraudster spoof the DWP number. Be careful, and if you get a call like that, ask them to send a message through your UC journal so you know it's them. Anyone genuine won't mind being asked to do this. Sorry to sound alarmist but scammers really are getting more and more clever and I'd hate for anybody to be caught out.


I have sent the following journal message in the hope the Jobcentre will warn claimants (and also to cover my back on the off chance it was genuine so they can't sanction me for not answering a call I didn't hear due to walking along a busy main road at the time):

Good afternoon, I had a missed call today at 11:21 from 0800 0232635, which comes up online as a DWP number. However, I have not been sent any messages in my journal, and neither my coach nor the Universal Credit call centre are aware of anybody trying to contact me as there were no notes made. It seems most likely I was called in error, however there have recently been stories in the press of scammers spoofing the DWP number in order to get people's bank details. Maybe this could be cascaded to claimants so they are aware? In the meantime, you can always send me a journal message if you need to contact me for any reason.

All phone call I received have always been preceded by a message in the journal, defo was a scam.

 

[LeytonCatLady]

MSN

Automated? I don't like the sound of that. As things stand, if you're suspected of doing something wrong, they're supposed to tell you and give you the opportunity to give your side of the story before referring you for sanction (though I'm sure many staff don't bother with that). Is this going to be used to deem a jobseeker guilty of failing to take a job without a fair hearing?

 

[Dystopiary]

MSN

Automated? I don't like the sound of that. As things stand, if you're suspected of doing something wrong, they're supposed to tell you and give you the opportunity to give your side of the story before referring you for sanction (though I'm sure many staff don't bother with that). Is this going to be used to deem a jobseeker guilty of failing to take a job without a fair hearing?

"Handouts" is awful wording too.

 

[LeytonCatLady]

"Handouts" is awful wording too.

Exactly. Benefit money is not a handout, it's always been conditional on looking for work. I hate the way they act like this is a new thing, like "NOW we're getting tough!", as if it was easy for unemployed people before. And even if the government had been softer in the past, that would be on them, not benefit claimants. It reminds me a bit of manipulative parents who spoil their kids and then condemn them for being spoilt.

 

[LeytonCatLady]

Wow, what a revelation!

Benefit sanctions don't help people into work, internal DWP report finds

An report which ministers tried to keep private reveals sanctions reduce the chance of someone getting into work faster

inews.co.uk

And in other news, water is wet.

 

[weepiper]

I thought we were supposed to be getting like a 10% increase because of inflation from April? I've been kind of mentally clinging to that to help mitigate the impact of my middle son leaving school (so my UC is going to drop dramatically very soon) but I've just logged in and my April payment is exactly the same as last month.

 

[LeytonCatLady]

I thought we were supposed to be getting like a 10% increase because of inflation from April? I've been kind of mentally clinging to that to help mitigate the impact of my middle son leaving school (so my UC is going to drop dramatically very soon) but I've just logged in and my April payment is exactly the same as last month.

So was mine, but I think that's because the assessment period started in March before the increase came into force? Check with them, but I think we'll see it go up next month.

 

[LeytonCatLady]

Hey guys, just a possible sanction trap you might want to be aware of.

At my UC appointment last week, my coach booked me in for today at 12:15 for my usual work search review, and then a 13:30 appointment to meet with a recruiter from a company who were doing a job screening there today. That sounds straightforward, but she said to go to see Recruiter first, then come over to her at 14:00 when the job screening was completed, and she'd mark me as having attended both. I asked why not just book our usual appointment for 14:00 then, and she looked a bit shifty and mumbled some vague excuse, which gave me a bad feeling about what she was up to, especially as she didn't put any notes on the system explaining why she had done it in this bizarre way!

So this morning at 08:00, I messaged her asking "As discussed last week, do you still want me to attend our appointment after seeing Recruiter, and not before? If I don't hear from you, I'll come at the official time of 12:15." By 11:30, I'd had no reply so I went to the Jobcentre anyway. While I was sitting waiting for her, I got a journal message through from one of her colleagues which said "I can confirm your appointment with Coach is 12:15", so obviously no one else was aware of our arrangement! When she saw me waiting, she smiled in a friendly enough way but said "You forgot you were supposed to see me later!" I nicely explained I was concerned in case she ended up being absent today for any reason, because if that happened and I had to see someone else, they'd think I was late for the 12:15 appointment. She apologized for not seeing my message and said she'd mark me as attended. So that was sorted.

She then said I could come and see Recruiter at 13:00, half an hour early. I still had 45 minutes to go so I went and read in the library for a bit, then came back. There was another woman also waiting to see the same recruiter, and her appointment was 13:00 so I had to wait anyway as I obviously had no intention of queue jumping just because my coach can't organise a piss up in a brewery!

Sorry for the long post, I don't know if today's events were just poor planning or if Coach was trying to catch me out. But if in doubt, always go to the early appointment anyway. I ended up wasting two hours at the Jobcentre unnecessarily, but I may well have got sanctioned if I hadn't. When I went over to her desk after the screening to say it was done - as she'd requested - she wasn't even there! So I was right to cover myself. Just trust your gut, basically. You will never be put in the wrong for double checking things. If they're trying to trick you, you're showing them you won't fall for it. And if they're just disorganised and don't care if they're wasting your time, they'll care all right when it backfires and fucks up their schedule too.

 

[LeytonCatLady]

Last week (Mon 11th Dec), I started some temporary ongoing work and reported this through my Universal Credit journal as a change of circs on the same day. I had an appointment scheduled for Fri 15th, which my coach cancelled because my new job is 40 hours a week and she said because my hours are full time, I'm not expected to attend appointments.

This Tuesday just gone, I got a text message through that I had a UC phone appointment booked on the afternoon of 4th January. I sent a journal message explaining that I will not be free to take the call as I'm at work, and I'd been told I wouldn't have to attend appointments. So then they just changed the appointment to an in-person one the following Saturday. My coach replied to say I still had to come to appointments until I got my earnings and because my 19th Nov-18th Dec AP had elapsed without any earnings, this automatically prompted the system to make the appointment. I pointed out that I only started work on the 11th so naturally I wouldn't get any pay within one week! However, I said if she could create me a to-do, I'd be happy to upload my payslip when I get it this Friday as proof I'm in paid employment.

This exchange took place on my lunch break, and when I checked my phone after finishing work on Tuesday afternoon, she still hadn't replied. So I rang the call centre hoping to speak to an actual person and maybe get somewhere. The agent explained that they won't accept a payslip because it has to be from the HMRC data they get sent, and they won't see this until the end of the assessment period. I thought it was supposed to be in real time?! He said if by 18th January I've earned more than £677 (which I will), THEN I won't have to attend appointments. I pointed out I'd only started work eight days ago and that their system didn't take into account that everybody has different start dates, so it wasn't reasonable to expect me to have had a payday yet, and certainly not for that amount. Also not fair or reasonable to expect me to waste my Saturday going to a Jobcentre for advice about job hunting when I've GOT a job.

He started talking down to me in a slow voice like I was an idiot, which didn't help my mood, namely "When you claim Universal Credit, you are agreeing to look for work. The appointment is mandatory, so if you don't go, we'll stop your money!" I reiterated that I'm aware of that, but I AM in work and I don't understand why I'm being treated as if I was still unemployed. Also why would I lie, because as he'd said himself, the earnings are reported automatically, so they'd soon realise I was lying when an entire month (not eight days!) passed without any earnings data. At this point, he snapped "I don't know what you want me to say!" I pointed out: "Just because I'm not working on Saturday doesn't mean I've got nothing better to do, and I deserve a break after working hard all week. I don't think you'd like being forced to go to a Jobcentre for pointless meetings on your day off either. Not only that, but it's a waste of your time as you could give that appointment to someone who actually is out of work and needs the help more! I don't expect you to say anything, and I'm sure you're not allowed to anyway, however I'm allowed to say how I feel." The call ended with me saying if I really had to go then I'd have to.

Reading that back, I can see I came across as arsey with the call centre agent, but I made it clear at the time I wasn't mad at him, just at the situation. I know he must get a load of shit in that job, so I was careful not to be rude. Mind you, I didn't find him that helpful or empathetic with me, either, and I sometimes find call centre staff do this with me. I don't know if it's the Brummie accent and they assume I'm thick. But anyway, I'll go to the stupid appointment on 6th January and show them my payslips. When they ask "How's the job hunt going?", I'll say "I'm in work" and see if the light bulb comes on in their bureaucratic brain.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

i'm sure one of the original ideas behind universal clusterfuck was to cope better with people having irregular (zero hours, variable part time, or short term temporary) work than the old system used to...

 

[LeytonCatLady]

i'm sure one of the original ideas behind universal clusterfuck was to cope better with people having irregular (zero hours, variable part time, or short term temporary) work than the old system used to...

It does in that you don't need to sign off and get fuck all, but they should have more flexibility and they also need to listen to what claimants are telling them, not just "computer says no and that's it". I wonder if they'll still expect me to look for work for 35 hours per week on top of my 40 hour per week job. Blatantly against their own guidance. If that happens, I'll ask for a manager and make a complaint.

 

[NoXion]

i'm sure one of the original ideas behind universal clusterfuck was to cope better with people having irregular (zero hours, variable part time, or short term temporary) work than the old system used to...

That's the way I remember it being sold. The reality seems to be rather different. My flatmate has had to deal with similar kinds of nonsense due to the start date of his new job being pushed back because of administrative fuck-ups.