UNION related chat, reflections and experiences. Reps & members alike!

[ddraig]

Our union branch committee voted to make a donation to another union's strike fund. We've now been advised by a full-time official that this would be risky territory as it could potentially be challenged as inappropriate expenditure. Is it just me, or is that totally fucking bonkers?

Yes it's bonkers, some full time officers are too cosy in their paid positions and close to the bosses

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Our union branch committee voted to make a donation to another union's strike fund. We've now been advised by a full-time official that this would be risky territory as it could potentially be challenged as inappropriate expenditure. Is it just me, or is that totally fucking bonkers?

Yes, it does sound bonkers

But - with all the tories' anti trade union laws, it wouldn't surprise me too much if it wasn't allowed. I'm not really up to date with these things.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Our union branch committee voted to make a donation to another union's strike fund. We've now been advised by a full-time official that this would be risky territory as it could potentially be challenged as inappropriate expenditure. Is it just me, or is that totally fucking bonkers?

It’s a load of bollocks.

 

[hitmouse]

Yes, it does sound bonkers

But - with all the tories' anti trade union laws, it wouldn't surprise me too much if it wasn't allowed. I'm not really up to date with these things.

Yeah, as much as it pains me to say "this isn't the tories' fault", I think the culprit in this case is more to do with some union officials having a mentality that seems other unions as rivals rather than as fellow workers or, god forbid, comrades.
While I'm on a whinge, I recently had a look at whether our branch could purchase branded face masks for our members as a way of promoting covid safety while also helping to improve the union's visibility (yes, I know this idea is about two years late, but better late than never), only to find out that the national union had given out guidance saying banning branded face masks because "This is important to protect the union." Which, given that other unions like Unite and the RMT have definitely made them, would seem to be less because unions who have branded face coverings get into trouble, and more just that our officials love to make life difficult?

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Yeah, as much as it pains me to say "this isn't the tories' fault", I think the culprit in this case is more to do with some union officials having a mentality that seems other unions as rivals rather than as fellow workers or, god forbid, comrades.

As far as I know Tory anti-trade union would only be a consideration if the Branch wanted to donate funds to a political party at election time. Even then, its more about accounting by the union centrally. There is nothing to prevent a branch supporting workers from another union in struggle. We do it regularly.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Yeah, as much as it pains me to say "this isn't the tories' fault", I think the culprit in this case is more to do with some union officials having a mentality that seems other unions as rivals rather than as fellow workers or, god forbid, comrades.

As far as I know Tory anti-trade union would only be a consideration if the Branch wanted to donate funds to a political party at election time. Even then, its more about accounting by the union centrally. There is nothing to prevent a branch supporting workers from another union in struggle. We do it regularly.

in which case at the officials involved.

as i said, i've not been actively involved for a while - have been a union member but not in a 'recognised' job with a branch and so on. i would not have put it past the tories to make something like that count as some form of 'secondary industrial action' while i wasn't looking...

yes, there are some lines of work where multiple unions can give management the opportunity to play the unions involved off against each other, and the unions involved can sometimes fall for it...

 

[Lord Camomile]

Yes, it does sound bonkers

But - with all the tories' anti trade union laws, it wouldn't surprise me too much if it wasn't allowed. I'm not really up to date with these things.

Aye, that was essentially my initial thoughts too.

Honestly not sure if it's good news or not that it's not anti-union legislation but just cross-union territorial concerns.

Yeah, as much as it pains me to say "this isn't the tories' fault", I think the culprit in this case is more to do with some union officials having a mentality that seems other unions as rivals rather than as fellow workers or, god forbid, comrades.
While I'm on a whinge, I recently had a look at whether our branch could purchase branded face masks for our members as a way of promoting covid safety while also helping to improve the union's visibility (yes, I know this idea is about two years late, but better late than never), only to find out that the national union had given out guidance saying banning branded face masks because "This is important to protect the union." Which, given that other unions like Unite and the RMT have definitely made them, would seem to be less because unions who have branded face coverings get into trouble, and more just that our officials love to make life difficult?

Is it "protect the union" essentially in an "I bought one of your masks but still got Covid" sort of way?!

 

[Lord Camomile]

yes, there are some lines of work where multiple unions can give management the opportunity to play the unions involved off against each other, and the unions involved can sometimes fall for it...

We've three unions in my workplace, and pretty sure I've been told about similar stuff happening here.

Think one I remember was essentially management saying "we've had really good talks with Union A", something like that. Probably much more sinister stuff around though, I imagine.

 

[hitmouse]

Aye, that was essentially my initial thoughts too.

Honestly not sure if it's good news or not that it's not anti-union legislation but just cross-union territorial concerns.

Yeah, and it's a union where we do have some "competition" for members in some workplaces, but this particular dispute is in an industry/sector where we have no presence at all. Which was given as another reason for why a donation might be ruled inappropriate.

Is it "protect the union" essentially in an "I bought one of your masks but still got Covid" sort of way?!

I mean, I can only go by the statement put out, which doesn't give any extra reasoning, but yeah, I would guess that must be the "logic" at work. Which again, I'm sure is nonsense, I've never heard of anyone successfully suing a mask manufacturer after catching covid, and with the exact moment of transmission being notoriously difficult to pinpoint, I can't imagine how you could prove to a court that you were definitely 100% wearing that particular mask at the moment you got infected.

 

[Lord Camomile]

Yeah, and it's a union where we do have some "competition" for members in some workplaces, but this particular dispute is in an industry/sector where we have no presence at all. Which was given as another reason for why a donation might be ruled inappropriate.

I mean, I can only go by the statement put out, which doesn't give any extra reasoning, but yeah, I would guess that must be the "logic" at work. Which again, I'm sure is nonsense, I've never heard of anyone successfully suing a mask manufacturer after catching covid, and with the exact moment of transmission being notoriously difficult to pinpoint, I can't imagine how you could prove to a court that you were definitely 100% wearing that particular mask at the moment you got infected.

Sorry, yeah, it was very much a "is this your/our interpretation?", rather than thinking you had more info.

Again, not going to pretend I know 'owt about the law, but yup, certainly reads like one of those where there is sort of a logic to it, but only if you accept certain premises which likely aren't actually true.

 

[belboid]

Which fund would it be coming from? It can’t come from the admin or Labour link funds, only the general political fund. If that has nowt in it, the official could have a point.

And which union is it you want to donate to? If we’d (unite) donated to unison, that would have been fine, no questions asked. If it was the IWGB however….

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Which fund would it be coming from? It can’t come from the admin or Labour link funds, only the general political fund. If that has nowt in it, the official could have a point.

And which union is it you want to donate to? If we’d (unite) donated to unison, that would have been fine, no questions asked. If it was the IWGB however….

There is nothing in rule to prevent Unite Branches donating to the IWGB. Bar FTO disapproval of course.

 

[hitmouse]

Which fund would it be coming from? It can’t come from the admin or Labour link funds, only the general political fund. If that has nowt in it, the official could have a point.

And which union is it you want to donate to? If we’d (unite) donated to unison, that would have been fine, no questions asked. If it was the IWGB however….

Um, from branch funds, I'm not 100% sure if we have the three separate funds at branch level but then I'm not the treasurer, I think we just have general fund and industrial action fund? And yeah, was having a paranoid moment of not wanting to name names but was indeed the IWGB couriers' dispute which seemed worth supporting. Since they are a certified trade union, I can't see how making a donation to them would be legally any different to donating to any other union, although I can imagine some union officials may dislike them more.

 

[belboid]

They’re a non-TUC union though, which might be affected by a rule someplace. I’d still do it and tell the official where to stick it, what’s the worst they can do?

 

[hitmouse]

They’re a non-TUC union though, which might be affected by a rule someplace. I’d still do it and tell the official where to stick it, what’s the worst they can do?

I mean, that would be my instinctive reaction, but it's not just up to me, so I think I'll have to discuss it with the rest of the branch committee, not least to get an answer to "what’s the worst they can do?", cos I'd feel like a right twat if I ended up getting us all suspended or something. There is a part of me that wonders if it'd be possible to "launder" the money by donating it to the local trades council, who are presumably a bit freer to spend money in supporting relevant disputes, I don't know if that idea is a bit insane though?

 

[Smokeandsteam]

They’re a non-TUC union though, which might be affected by a rule someplace. I’d still do it and tell the official where to stick it, what’s the worst they can do?

Ditto. We’ve been threatened with loads by the (now previous) full timer.

 

[Lord Camomile]

Yet another one where I'm unclear on all the history/context. I also think I get mixed up between IWGB and IWW (Industrial Workers of the World - 'cause I don't even know how well known there are! ).

 

[hitmouse]

This feels very "compare and contrast" with the experience mentioned above, well done to the CWU for acting like a normal sensible union:

 

[hitmouse]

I mean, I can only go by the statement put out, which doesn't give any extra reasoning, but yeah, I would guess that must be the "logic" at work. Which again, I'm sure is nonsense, I've never heard of anyone successfully suing a mask manufacturer after catching covid, and with the exact moment of transmission being notoriously difficult to pinpoint, I can't imagine how you could prove to a court that you were definitely 100% wearing that particular mask at the moment you got infected.

As an update on this, Unison seem to have just now, as of March 15 this year, decided they can start producing branded face masks:

Better late than never and all that, but it seems like starting to produce face masks in March 2022 is missing the boat by a tiny bit? Also I think some of our branches may have more than 50/75 members?

 

[Duncan2]

I see the big local employment agency for distribution centre staff are not putting "good health" as an essential attribute for those applying for work.Cant be legal can it because it's the equivalent of saying "differently abled people need not apply"?

 

[Duncan2]

I meant they are now putting that obvs

 

[Duncan2]

This probably belongs in the bleeding obvious things thread but I have long wondered why Temp Employment Agencies commonly advertise jobs at a certain wage in a certain area but rarely say WHO the putative worker is going to be working for.
Of course this must be because it would put them in bad odour with the local employers because it would be a simple matter to do a quick scan of the Agency Work available and produce a list of the stingiest companies/corporations.

 

[Ms T]

Ugh. Another round of redundancies.

 

[Lord Camomile]

May have asked before, but are there any online places where reps/union activists hang out and talk to each other?

Often I'd like to talk to folk beyond my own branch, who might have ideas/experience that could help with something we're trying to do, but don't know many places that are properly "let's talk about trade union admin and organising logistics, whoo!".

I know of things like the Unionreps forum, but it's not super active, and I'm in a handful of different chats with a few local branches, etc, and obviously there's urban but just wondering if there's places I'm unaware of that it'd be good to check out?

 

[Pickman's model]

May have asked before, but are there any online places where reps/union activists hang out and talk to each other?

Often I'd like to talk to folk beyond my own branch, who might have ideas/experience that could help with something we're trying to do, but don't know many places that are properly "let's talk about trade union admin and organising logistics, whoo!".

I know of things like the Unionreps forum, but it's not super active, and I'm in a handful of different chats with a few local branches, etc, and obviously there's urban but just wondering if there's places I'm unaware of that it'd be good to check out?

if you're a rep then i imagine you've gone on tu training courses where you'll likely have met some people you'd like to keep in touch with - and if you haven't you should go on one of the courses. how you proceed from there is obviously up to you

 

[Lord Camomile]

if you're a rep then i imagine you've gone on tu training courses where you'll likely have met some people you'd like to keep in touch with - and if you haven't you should go on one of the courses. how you proceed from there is obviously up to you

Yeah, as I say, I'm in a handful of groups along those lines. I'm just looking for something a bit... bigger, I guess. Something with a bit more reach, so you get a wider range of input and experiences.

There are a few individuals/branches I plan to talk to about specific things, but again, that's still small and private discussions.

 

[hitmouse]

May have asked before, but are there any online places where reps/union activists hang out and talk to each other?

Often I'd like to talk to folk beyond my own branch, who might have ideas/experience that could help with something we're trying to do, but don't know many places that are properly "let's talk about trade union admin and organising logistics, whoo!".

I know of things like the Unionreps forum, but it's not super active, and I'm in a handful of different chats with a few local branches, etc, and obviously there's urban but just wondering if there's places I'm unaware of that it'd be good to check out?

I'd say Strike Map would be a good point of call - are you in their regional Strike Club WhatsApp group?
They've also got a form here where you can sign up to their reps network:

Join Strike Map's reps, stewards and strike leaders network

Sign up using our form to join our network as bring together all those leading struggle into a reps/stewards/strike leaders national network. This network will share tactics, strategies and resources.

actionnetwork.org

I filled it in, found out it was Slack-based and then couldn't be arsed to go any further, but that sounds like what you're looking for?
Also, perhaps an obvious one, but try checking your local trades council - some of them are pretty moribund, some are a bit less so, but if there are people interested in similar stuff in your area then you might well find them there?
Oh, and to plug Ian Allinson's book tour as well:

Upcoming Events – Workers Can Win! A Guide to Organising at Work.

workers-can-win.info

Dunno what your plans are like for tomorrow afternoon, but sounds like the London launch of his book is tomorrow, co-hosted by two Unite branches, and that might well be a very good place to meet other union reps?

 

[hitmouse]

Might as well put this here, online meeting with people from the Starbucks union:

Welcome! You are invited to join a meeting: Unionising Starbucks ft Starbucks Workers United & BFAWU. After registering, you will receive a confirmation email about joining the meeting.

Join Starbucks Workers United members Kylah Clay and Taylor Dickerson, as we discuss the ongoing strikes, and recognition campaigns across Starbucks in the USA. This meeting will be chaired by Sarah Woolley, General Secretary Bakers, Food and Allied Workers Union, and will explore how we can...

us02web.zoom.us

 

[Lord Camomile]

For anyone interested, TUC Congress is being streamed live (second day today, then final day tomorrow).

Watch Congress live

Congress sessions live from Tuesday 18 September.

www.tuc.org.uk

Programme of business.

 

[Lord Camomile]

I'd say Strike Map would be a good point of call - are you in their regional Strike Club WhatsApp group?
They've also got a form here where you can sign up to their reps network:

Join Strike Map's reps, stewards and strike leaders network

Sign up using our form to join our network as bring together all those leading struggle into a reps/stewards/strike leaders national network. This network will share tactics, strategies and resources.

actionnetwork.org

I filled it in, found out it was Slack-based and then couldn't be arsed to go any further, but that sounds like what you're looking for?
Also, perhaps an obvious one, but try checking your local trades council - some of them are pretty moribund, some are a bit less so, but if there are people interested in similar stuff in your area then you might well find them there?
Oh, and to plug Ian Allinson's book tour as well:

Upcoming Events – Workers Can Win! A Guide to Organising at Work.

workers-can-win.info

Dunno what your plans are like for tomorrow afternoon, but sounds like the London launch of his book is tomorrow, co-hosted by two Unite branches, and that might well be a very good place to meet other union reps?

Shit, sorry, honestly thought I'd already replied to this. Thanks for the thoughts/resources