understanding China better

[fela fan]

Right, this being the world forum and that…

Let’s give this a go. We westerners, in general, can only know about china from what we hear in the news - western news. But is it a true picture? Can urban paint a different one?

I thought I’d see if posters want a thread where we can try and understand china and chinese people based on our own experiences and knowledge of china. If it takes off, hopefully there’ll be a series of posts that help unravel what I’d guess is quite a mystery over this huge country, that some say will be the next super power, and that others say will be worse than the american super power.

So, to begin with...

 

[fela fan]

I live and work in thailand which is very close to china and thus has a fair few links to the country. Recently I was training a dozen chinese female english teachers over here from kunming university, capital of yunnan province in the south of the country.

Talking to them, I found out that, like in england, young folk like to dabble in ecstasy and other drugs. They go to pubs like us, drink like us, and apparantly have freedom to do so.

The most interesting they told me was that there is a culture that dictates when you’re about to close in on a business deal, the buyer will go out drinking with the potential seller. No deal will occur if the seller doesn’t do this drinking session with them. And it’s some bloody session!

Apparantly it’s a common thing for one or both of them to end up in the hospital with acute alcohol poisoning, at times resulting in death. And therefore no deal! Obviously nurses and doctors must be quite practised in dealing with such ‘illnesses’.

One girl told me her husband had his own company and has been to hospital twice. She said he no longer has to go into these sessions coz folk around him are afraid he will die the next time!

Okay, over to others with their stories about china and her people. I have plenty more, but I’ll see if folk are interested in making this thread a success, or a flop…

 

[i_hate_beckham]

I lived with 2 chinese guys at uni, one of them was a trained chef so all the his mates used to come to ours for dinner. They all spoke to each other in either English or Mandarin because otherwise despite being from the same country they didnt speak the same language day to day.

 

[oneflewover]

Talking to them, I found out that, like in england, young folk like to dabble in ecstasy and other drugs. They go to pubs like us, drink like us, and apparantly have freedom to do so.

The most interesting they told me was that there is a culture that dictates when you’re about to close in on a business deal, the buyer will go out drinking with the potential seller. No deal will occur if the seller doesn’t do this drinking session with them. And it’s some bloody session!

With all due respect, because i haven't been, these seem very westernised Chinese. Not for a moment can it or should it represent the other 99% of the population

A Balance Sheet of A Rural Family

Name (identity withheld by request of the head of household)
Family members: 4
Farming land: 3.01 mu (The ration of mu and acre is xxx)

Yearly agricultural income: 1851.15 Yuan. ($225.75)

Chinese Peasants

Somehow i don't see these popping to a club a slipping a couple of E's

 

[i_hate_beckham]

With all due respect, because i haven't been, these seem very westernised Chinese. Not for a moment can it or should it represent the other 99% of the population

A Balance Sheet of A Rural Family

Name (identity withheld by request of the head of household)
Family members: 4
Farming land: 3.01 mu (The ration of mu and acre is xxx)

Yearly agricultural income: 1851.15 Yuan. ($225.75)

Chinese Peasants

Somehow i don't see these popping to a club a slipping a couple of E's

Also the drug laws are really strict with the death sentence applied to dealing in most drugs.

 

[Mrs Magpie]

How can anyone get a take on such a vast country with such different customs and attitudes depending on where in China the people live?

 

[slaar]

How can anyone get a take on such a vast country with such different customs and attitudes depending on where in China the people live?

Sure, but a number of snapshots are interesting if nothing else.

 

[purves grundy]

The Chinese students I've taught / met here in the UK have tended to be fairly reluctant to hang about with people from other countries. Not all of them, but most. They would invariably be over to study some sort of 'business' course, the sort of courses that our magnificent universities are adopting to replace useless courses like philosophy and linguistics in order to extract as much money as possible off foreign students. Some of them liked a wild time alright, although a lot of Arabic students also did.

In Indonesia, where there's a big Chinese diaspora, many of them steer clear of ethnic Malays - there's plenty of discrimination by both sides there though.

 

[fela fan]

How can anyone get a take on such a vast country with such different customs and attitudes depending on where in China the people live?

One might say the same thing about america, or russia even. But we still have our take on those countries.

To remind what i proposed the thread to be about: to get another picture on the country, rather than having to rely upon the western media's take on it.

I always prefer to listen to the average man/woman on the street than the media with their agenda.

 

[fela fan]

With all due respect, because i haven't been, these seem very westernised Chinese. Not for a moment can it or should it represent the other 99% of the population

Well, this is precisely my point. If you've not been, how can you say their westernised? Might they have always been this way? How do we know when all we get is the western media's take on them all?

And where does 99% figure come from? The ether?

I am just hoping that we can collate a load of urbanites' experiences to find out a bit more about this very important country.

For example, almost everything one buys in australia, in particular pretty much all souvenirs, is made in china. Years ago i remember the same about taiwan in britain.

 

[i_hate_beckham]

The centre of Shanghi has some stunning buildings.

 

[Maggot]

I am in regular contact with a chinese girl who I met through Friendster. She lives near beijing and appears to have quite a modern westernised life. She was working for a telecoms company, but has just left to get a job teaching English to young kids which is much more what she wanted to do.

She is up to date with the news and heard all about the london bombings immediately, she has a CD player, digital camera and internet access (obviously!).

 

[friedaweed]

Great idea.
I honestly know jack about China other than the little cultural snippets we get, through our very healthy connections (Maily in the fastfood industry ) ,with the Chinese communities living in the UK. We go to the events in liverpools china town with the kid (Great hey ) but beyound that i think i agree we do get a bit of a tabloid picture painted of China itself.

I'd be really interested in following this thread especially if it sidesteps all the stereotypical stuff we get already.

Plus i always liked listening to peoples travel tales Do one on Kenya and i'll bore the shit out of ya for pages

 

[oneflewover]

Well, this is precisely my point. If you've not been, how can you say their westernised? Might they have always been this way? How do we know when all we get is the western media's take on them all?

And where does 99% figure come from? The ether?

I am just hoping that we can collate a load of urbanites' experiences to find out a bit more about this very important country.

For example, almost everything one buys in australia, in particular pretty much all souvenirs, is made in china. Years ago i remember the same about taiwan in britain.

If they are pubbing and e'ing, i'd call that western behaviour. Unless we where wholly misinformed about the Mao years, I doubt they have always been like that. But as you say and in my shame the only Chinese i have spoken to are across a take away counter.

99%, yes out of the ether, however a country that has 90million under the poverty line that it sets at 81 US dollars a year. Poverty line
and articles from this site Working conditions would make it very high

The simplified reason for all the articles being made in China is that the labour costs are, challenged only by India, the lowest in the world and the workers rights, again challenged by India, are the worst in the world.

China is without doubt the next superpower, sucking up all available resources, shoving up prices of fuel and steel. Yet it is still a mystery with huge parts of the country closed to western eyes. This is what makes it such an enigma.

 

[the B]

I could tell you shitloads about China... and I'll get round to adding some stuff in... I reckon mango5 can too

Anything from the regularity of suicide bombings you don't hear about, new division in the military for crowd control, the state of wage payments (or rather, missing payments) for construction workers, the abuse of women and the starting of 'illegal' radio support groups etc.

Swine fever not being controlled, corruption, protection rackets, tourist scams, pollution, forced evictions, olympic preparation,seemingly state supported crime rings, illegal web cafes, a punk counterculture... lots of stuff goes on out there...

Avian flu, attitudes to poultry, animals, the grip of confusian family orientated teachings, business culture, subtle language differences over the statements like 'will it happen' (something that causes endless headaches in orient-west business because businessmen are regularly fools who don't check out these kind of things!), the TV stations, the gameshows, the kind of music videos, literature piracy (they've had about 12 harry potter books by now).

There is just loads to be said about the place, like any other place.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

The B is someone I'd listen to with interest on this topic.

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

Talking to them, I found out that, like in england, young folk like to dabble in ecstasy and other drugs. They go to pubs like us, drink like us, and apparantly have freedom to do so.

Not up here in Wuhan, mate. Well actually there are quite a few clubs where there is open chemical drug use, people snorting K off the tables, etc.

But in terms of drinking, forget it. My only options are to trek a long way across the city to certain expatty bars that are expensive. It's that or sit at a dingy local cafe drinking weak (but cheap beer).

But in Kunming, where they are from, it's a different story. There are tons of nice pubs and bars, and they are pretty cheap too, as the local beer is a decent strength so they don't need to sell imported stuff.

One thing's for sure though, alcohol is easier to obtain than in the UK. Even in my little street there are shops open 24/7 selling alcohol.

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

the abuse of women

Is this really substantial compared to say Saudi Arabia?

I say this because I live in a middle city of China, not one of the most westernised ones, and the women seem relatively free here. They aren't made to wear burquas, there's no such thing as FGM, there aren't any arranged/forced marriages.

My parents in law, after a few initial objections, have no problem with my relationship with Mrs RD.

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

My inlaws are from the countryside in China. They aren't the poorest, but they are still poor in Chinese terms. I don't think the picture is as bleak as some people have painted it. They have electricity, running water, a TV, DVD player, landline telephone. They eat well. The one major problem is that few houses are heated. When we visit in the winter we have to sit around in thick socks, coat and hat!

This is a common thing, even in the more modern blocks in the big cities, as for some reason nowhere is centrally heated or insulated. And running an air conditioner/heating unit can be really expensive.

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

I can't believe labour is second only to India in low rates. Worse than Subsaharan Africa? Bolivia? Peru?

Sorry, I don't believe it for a second.

 

[pinkmonkey]

I've been travelling out to the far east to work for the past 14 years including China.

I can only comment on the Pearl River Delta and the areas around it because they're the only places I've been to. Mostly the areas I work in are Special Administrative Regions.

In a nutshell, it's getting harder to distinguish this area from Hong Kong.

Re. the businessman drinking thing - I didn't experience that - most people I work with here are teetotal. The heavy drinking thing comes from Korean or Taiwanese businessmen and I can vouch that I've been in a terrible mess after some of the sessions. I've become very adept at pouring my wine into pot plants when people aren't looking.

Re. women - I've not really noticed much discrimination TBH. I mainly work with women out here, one woman I work with runs her own business, has loads of staff and is doing really well.

 

[pinkmonkey]

But for me, the most noticeable thing by far is the lack of female children. The hotel I'm in is packed at the moment because it's the school holidays. There were about a dozen toddlers tearing around the breakfast room this morning but not one of them was female. In an half an hour drive to work after breakfast, I spotted just one little girl.

 

[Jessiedog]

Mostly the areas I work in are Special Administrative Regions.

That would be "Special Economic Zones" (SEZ).

There are only two "Special Administrative Regions" (SAR) in China - Hong Kong and Macau.







Woof

 

[pinkmonkey]

That would be "Special Economic Zones" (SEZ).

There are only two "Special Administrative Regions" (SAR) in China - Hong Kong and Macau.





Woof

Oops I got me SEZ and me SAR confused. Add SARS to that and

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

But for me, the most noticeable thing by far is the lack of female children. The hotel I'm in is packed at the moment because it's the school holidays. There were about a dozen toddlers tearing around the breakfast room this morning but not one of them was female. In an half an hour drive to work after breakfast, I spotted just one little girl.

I know, and this is a real worry. Last term I counted up the numbers of boys and girls in each class, out of around 40 on average, it was usually around 23 boys and 17 girls. What will happen to all these guys who can't get married in the future?

 

[chinchilla]

I was at a business lunch in Guangzhou last week, we brought some americans with us who the host explained the businessman/drinking phenomenon. (over numerous rice wine/brandy/red wine toasts)

It completely depends where you are in China, he said in the southern states like guangdong it is not essential to drink with the hosts and that you can drink at your own pace and there is no pressure to keep up, this may have been true if we were given wine/beer but the number of toasts that are made which would be impolite to refuse invalidated his point.

In some of the more northern provinces if you do not get totally drunk with the hosts from the beginning it is very unlikely any further negotiation takes place let alone getting to closing.

In some areas the guest is given 3 shots to drink before the host takes one, this was described as not a macho thing but one of hospitality. During leaner years it was important to show hospitality by offering guests food, even if it meant the host going without.

Alcohol is seen as food as it is generally distilled from Rice, Barley and other food grains, so when the host gives the guest 3 to his one it is showing friendship.

Inner mongolia is notorious for this but i have yet to experience it.

Another tradition that offers unfair advantage is that, depending on the occasion, either the guest or the host will have to toast each person around the table individually, so that means if there are 12 people the toaster will have 12 shots to everyone elses 1.

in my experience when there are 2 groups this eventually deteriorates into everyone going round toasting everyone else several times so any advantage for either side is soon eroded.

 

[chinchilla]

Saying that, I was at a dinner with a potential customer in Jiangsu Province, in a town about 3 hours drive south of shanghai, the host ordered beer for us and drank juice himself, he couldn't care less what we drank but explained it was bad form not to eat the dishes that are served and that to do business in that region it was important to at least try the food.

It was lucky i had explained my allergy to prawns befor eordering.

 

[the B]

Is this really substantial compared to say Saudi Arabia?

I say this because I live in a middle city of China, not one of the most westernised ones, and the women seem relatively free here. They aren't made to wear burquas, there's no such thing as FGM, there aren't any arranged/forced marriages.

My parents in law, after a few initial objections, have no problem with my relationship with Mrs RD.

It's thing like domestic abuse, abuse in the workplace, an extension of the protection rackets, a mini slave-trade, loan sharks etc extending into prostitution.

I'm not saying Saudi is paradise

 

[the B]

My inlaws are from the countryside in China. They aren't the poorest, but they are still poor in Chinese terms. I don't think the picture is as bleak as some people have painted it. They have electricity, running water, a TV, DVD player, landline telephone. They eat well. The one major problem is that few houses are heated. When we visit in the winter we have to sit around in thick socks, coat and hat!

This is a common thing, even in the more modern blocks in the big cities, as for some reason nowhere is centrally heated or insulated. And running an air conditioner/heating unit can be really expensive.

Consumer goods consumption is on the up for some, not going so well for others... there is a growing divide between haves and have nots.

Do they have a dish washer and washing machine? Those are, traditionally, seen as being much more 'cool' than a TV and telephone. Labour saving devices are considered much nicer than entertainment ones in most parts.

I forgot to mention something else - education in China, how that goes, the sheer fact that you don't get crosswords in chinese so everyone does number puzzles and mathematics is pretty intense stuff out there...

 

[the B]

I know, and this is a real worry. Last term I counted up the numbers of boys and girls in each class, out of around 40 on average, it was usually around 23 boys and 17 girls. What will happen to all these guys who can't get married in the future?

Export market in mail-order grooms?