Ukraine

[butchersapron]

Right, we need to get clear about what the Communist parties represent in the Ukraine - that is pro-russian imperialism far right authoritarianism often with tinges of something far more nastier. No one confuse them for Bolsheviks or whatever popular image of Communists as left-wing they have in their head.

 

[Casually Red]

Here is the little more I've seen on the heckling:

From the guardian live updates page:



http://latinotimes.com/world/1214385-ukrainian-opposition-leader-is-freed-from-prison.html

those must have been the young guys skynews showed being dragged out of the crowd . Last night BBC also featured a steady stream of others just turning their backs and pointedly walking away from the square when she started speaking.

 

[frogwoman]

Right, we need to get clear about what the Communist parties represent in the Ukraine - that is pro-russian imperialism far right authoritarianism often with tinges of something far more nastier. No one confuse them for Bolsheviks or whatever popular image of Communists as left-wing they have in their head.

Yep.

 

[Delroy Booth]

No I mean it's the sort of shit that helped lead to war just over 20 years ago in transnistria.

And that's really small fry compared to this, Ukraine's a huge issue for Russia it's a huge country with a lot of natural resources and industry and so forth, it's right on Russia's doorstep. The whole Eurasian project that Putin is trying to set up with the Stan countries of central Asia and Belorussia and Ukraine and is in jeopardy.

No state would accept this happening on its doorstep, it's a threat to Russia's security now and it's future prospects.

Is a civil war now inevitable? Is there any chance of a reconciliation or is this it?

 

[frogwoman]

I am not sure there will be a war, a tense stand off is more likely, I think there may still be a war but not now. 2017 is when the real shit is going to hit the fan IMO

 

[Casually Red]

Yes, very sobering.
Putting the potential for shenanigans aside, the Chernobyl sarcophagus isn't even finished and there the reactor still full of toxic shit. The safety aspect for the remaining 15 is probably the biggest risk, especially when their reactors get cranked up to 11 after Putin turns the gas off.

the government..if you could even call it that..are basically skint at the minute. I dont imagine health, safety and maintenance have a lot of funding right now.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

I am not sure there will be a war, a tense stand off is more likely, I think there may still be a war but not now. 2017 is when the real shit is going to hit the fan IMO

Just catching up so apols if I've missed it - what's so important in 2017 as opposed to right here right now?

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

I am not sure there will be a war, a tense stand off is more likely, I think there may still be a war but not now. 2017 is when the real shit is going to hit the fan IMO

What's happening in 2017?

 

[DaveCinzano]

what's so important in 2017 as opposed to right here right now?

What's happening in 2017?

You weren't on the mailing list?

 

[Belushi]

What's happening in 2017?

Russian lease on Odessa ends.

 

[frogwoman]

Russian lease on Odessa ends.

On Sevastopol.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Wouldn't Russia just threaten to turn the gas taps off, rather than lose that strategic port?

 

[DownwardDog]

The Russian Navy do their carrier aviation training (such as it is) in Novofredrika near Sevastapol. They must think they are going to get turfed out sooner or later because they've started building their own facility in Yeysk on the Sea of Azov.

 

[J Ed]

Channel 4 journo quite happy to report homophobia from ethnic Russians, I suspect we will see more of this portrayal of opponents of the post-coup regime while the outright neo-Nazism of parts of the post-coup regime will either be ignored or downplayed.

 

[J Ed]

Just think back on Western media portrayal of Eastern Europe over the past few months.

Thatcher-esque homophobia from Russians and pro-Russian politicians = neo-Nazism
Openly espoused neo-Nazism from anti-Russian forces = slightly to the left of UKIP

 

[Kaka Tim]

So we have the fash militias in charge of Kiev refusing to leave until their demands are met? And the new government are going along with it?



The nazi tail looks to be wagging the neo-liberal dog.

Its a bit like that bit in Caberet when eveyone in the Beirkeller is singing 'toomorrow belongs to me' and your man turns to the german count and asks
'Do you still think you can control them?'

 

[Eastern-Odyssey]

the government..if you could even call it that..are basically skint at the minute. I dont imagine health, safety and maintenance have a lot of funding right now.

Plus they have no head of security defending the nuclear depots.

The SBU has no chair, no first deputies. Its head and the deputies have gone AWOL, their phones switched off,”

Valentin Nalivaichenko said. The agency “has no communication, no leadership, no plans to defend nuclear depots, the Dnepr Hydropower Plant or anything else.”

I also get the suspicion they may not have done a running, but vanished at the hands of the revolutionaries.

 

[Casually Red]

I thought this was interesting Channel 4 news last night 3.27 "you will all be dead if you don't sign".



I also find it interesting how this is being played down as not a coup in the media, when it clearly is. Removing the right wing elements, they are forming a coalition government with no opposition members, appointing their own people and passing laws with most pro-Russian politician's having fled to the East, or being clearly under duress. I'm interested to see how this law on banning the Party of Regions and the Ukraine Communist Party goes, being put forward by the leader of the Radical Party, because this not only would eliminate all opposition, but they don't even have to worry about winning the March elections.

Of course its a coup. For all the nonsense about mass protests ,outside that square itself Kiev was largely business as normal. The vast majority of people werent demonstrating, much less rioting.
Any politician who would dare disagree would be lynched by the fascist goon squads outside,who control all the entrances and exits. Some of them have been beaten up already when they tried to enter parliament.
And whether the law itself is passed or not seems to make little difference to the fascists. Remember all the agreements the opposition and the EU made with the government, hailed as international successes with the EU and the United Nations openly praising Yanukovich for his compromises. Which the fascsists just ignored. Thats why we are were we are now. The fascists are banning them, regardless of what parliament says or doesnt say.

They could barely hold Ukraine together even when co operating with the regions and commies. This lot of politicians dont even like each other. Their internal intrigues have been like a bag of snakes.

 

[Casually Red]

So we have the fash militias in charge of Kiev refusing to leave until their demands are met? And the new government are going along with it?

The nazi tail looks to wagging the neo-liberal dog.

the likes of Tymoshenko told them repeatedly and at length not to leave. In fact at one point told them they had no right to leave. And the new government have little choice because theres basically no cops, the fascists are outside and they are inside. Which makes them effective hostages to an armed fascist militia who have aleady made abundantly clear they dont give a toss what agreements they sign or with who .

And Ive no doubt this new government, who are only installed in power thanks to fascist violence, will be reminded they can be uninstalled just as quickly if they dont play ball.

 

[DaveCinzano]

Channel 4 journo quite happy to report homophobia from ethnic Russians, I suspect we will see more of this portrayal of opponents of the post-coup regime while the outright neo-Nazism of parts of the post-coup regime will either be ignored or downplayed.

Well, it's helpful to know where the official boundaries are at last:

“Guys in balaclavas in #Donetsk” = BAD
“Guys in balaclavas in #Kiev” = GOOD

Perhaps a few truth-seeking mediacos could club together and bulk-buy some appropriately colour-coded ski-masks for actors on all sides to wear? That way we don't even have to bother reading the on-screen ‘LIVE FROM’ captions before we rustle up a suitable ethno-cultural kneejerk opinion on which riot porn footage we feel comfortable getting a bone on about.

 

[Idris2002]

Some interesting and disturbing stuff from a wee ginger lad:



A short piece on Ukraine's "Interregional Academy of Personnel Management", who see their remit as promoting holocaust denial, and inviting David Duke to speak:



(I got these by typing "fascist elements in Ukraine" into youtube, btw).

 

[weltweit]

Meanwhile, freed former Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko has said she has no interest in being prime minister again.

In response to reports that her name was being mentioned as a possible candidate, she issued a statement reading: "No-one has agreed or discussed this with me.

"Thank you for your respect but I would like you not to consider my nomination for the post of the head of government."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26312008

 

[Casually Red]

So we have the fash militias in charge of Kiev refusing to leave until their demands are met? '

id say its not just kiev , as outside east and south Ukraine state authority and institutions seem to have collapsed . Cops have either fucked off or thrown lot in with said militias. Whove been helping themselves to various arms depots and are now a much more formidable force than they were a week ago. Their nazi slogans are now the official slogans of the coup . Theyre the heroes of the Maidan, heroes of Ukraine, Glory to them . Legitimacy has been conferred to them by all and sundry at the head of the opposition .

this is what happens when senior western politicians use nazis as temporary attack dogs against geopolitical opponents . And the western media dutifully proclaim hurrah for them. Its like feeding the Mogwai after midnight.

 

[butchersapron]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26312008

She said the exact opposite of having no interest. She wanted to guage potential support at different levels. Then she lied.

 

[rekil]

Well, it's helpful to know where the official boundaries are at last:

“Guys in balaclavas in #Donetsk” = BAD
“Guys in balaclavas in #Kiev” = GOOD

Good and polite. Very polite.

 

[DaveCinzano]

Good and polite. Very polite.

You never see Lenny Henry doing that, do you?

 

[Casually Red]

im just looking at photos of this statue felling. And whats notable is the very small crowds in attendance along with the nazi slogans

http://rt.com/news/war-monument-toppled-ukraine-351/

 

[Idris2002]

id say its not just kiev , as outside east and south Ukraine state authority and institutions seem to have collapsed . Cops have either fucked off or thrown lot in with said militias. Whove been helping themselves to various arms depots and are now a much more formidable force than they were a week ago. Their nazi slogans are now the official slogans of the coup . Theyre the heroes of the Maidan, heroes of Ukraine, Glory to them . Legitimacy has been conferred to them by all and sundry at the head of the opposition .

this is what happens when senior western politicians use nazis as temporary attack dogs against geopolitical opponents . And the western media dutifully proclaim hurrah for them. Its like feeding the Mogwai after midnight.

Got any links on the points in your first paragraph?

 

[frogwoman]

Some interesting and disturbing stuff from a wee ginger lad:



A short piece on Ukraine's "Interregional Academy of Personnel Management", who see their remit as promoting holocaust denial, and inviting David Duke to speak:



(I got these by typing "fascist elements in Ukraine" into youtube, btw).

Fuck

 

[Casually Red]

Good and polite. Very polite.

and um the words

Masked protestors....armed with a pistol.

they arent actually protestors, that is not protesting. Armed with a placard..a stone even...thats protesting.
If a few hundred masked nazis..or anyone for that matter... were prowling whitehall with guns looking for police I doubt very much Katie Stallard would be referring to them as protestors.
But then again Katie Stallard gets referred to as a journalist as opposed to a shill for neo nazis, so lets not quibble about labels.