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Ukraine

Teaboy said:
Fuck, if the plight of African refugees drowning in their hundreds if not thousands just off the coast of Europe can be largly ignored what hope do the people of Eastern Ukraine have?
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Indeed! One thing that strikes me about the fugee-flood from the coasts of North Africa as well as other routes is how it's never asked why there are so many people struggling to get to Dover now... it's just taken as given, "of course all these brown and black people want to get into Europe, our society is just so much better than the 3rd-world mud-pits from which they originate". It never seems to come up in these reports about Italian rescue boats and rafts packed with hundreds of bedraggled Somali-looking folk what they are fleeing from, usually it's assumed they're after our benefits because soft-touch Britain. Nothing to do with our various interventions in Libya, Mali, Somalia, Afganistan, Iraq and Syria etc.... nothing to do with neo-liberal reign over the economies and policies the nations that arguably require the most sovereign public spending and government regulation just to build up their societies enough (after the ravages of colonialism and other nightmares) to stop the prime of their people having to stream away to go scrub toilet floors in hostile tight-faced Ireland or somewhere just to survive.

If all this Ukraine stuff is how we treat the human 'bug-splat' of Western policies in a place where white people live, what hope do African, Asian and Middle-Eastern snake-head freight have. I bet any money that if Ukrainian refugees were also to head for Dover at least UKIP would pipe up on Ukraine more (not that they'd bother going beyond a rightarded analysis of things, but noise is noise...).
 
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Arsen avakov announcing today almost 300 us military advisors and trainers have arrived in lvov flown in from from their base in vIncenza . Seems they'll be working with yaroshes national guard . They look well happy in the photos .

The Brits are providing another 75
 
Casually Red said:
Arsen avakov announcing today almost 300 us military advisors and trainers have arrived in lvov flown in from from their base in vIncenza . Seems they'll be working with yaroshes national guard . They look well happy in the photos .

The Brits are providing another 75
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Article here about a CyberBerkut action re the above...

Military instructors from the USA, Denmark, Poland, Germany and other countries arrive to the Ukraine to help Kiev.

The Ukrainian hackers-activists have published the list of western instructors’ names. These people are reported to plan provocations in the south-eastern the Ukraine.

“We, the CyberBerkut, warn the people of Donbass and inform the people of the Ukraine: in the nearest future the criminal government of the Ukraine is planning to take up some set of provocations at the boundary with Donetsk and Lugansk People’s Republics. Moreover, Kiev Junta is planning to extent and expand the escalation of military conflict in the south-east of the Ukraine. This is what our agents report from Kiev: from 12th April till 6th May a group of western military instructors arrive in the Ukraine and start their anti-national activity” – this report is cited by RIA Novosti.

As you can see from the scans of documents the coup regime in Kiev is supported by military experts from different countries: the USA, Poland, Estonia, Finland, Turkey, Norway, Latvia, France, Denmark, Austria, Spain, Albania, Portugal, Croatia, Iceland and Slovakia. The majority of experts come from the USA.
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http://dnr-news.com/dnr/18316-kiber...ok-imen-zapadnyh-instruktorov-na-ukraine.html
 
camouflage said:
Where have I arrogantly (and inaccurately) decided a position for you that you do not hold, when I asked you a question? Here it is in a different form, why do you tell me I am looking to be mates with people who would kill me, what relevance do you think this statement holds in relation to the position I have outlined on the thread so far?

I have not said the whole Eurasian 'great-game' thing was only invented last teusday, Violent Panda responded to my post where I talk about Brzinksi and Stratfor as if I had claimed this was something fashionable and new. I don't need to refer to the Victorian era policies of Britain toward Russia when discussing the latest incarnation of essentially the same old shite. I have a deep appreciation of the historical perspective generally, but Russia and China in particular are like mountains of history, perhaps the sheer volume of history in lives and space imposes a sort of gravitational field... a 'civilizational space', such that transcends states and even nations, a canyon country of history formed by long running rivers of blood... figuratively speaking, structures in the cultural landscape that impose their own political imperatives or whatever, across religious, racial, language differences. But anyway, in sum I'm not here to talk books at people, but The Next 100 Years is an entertaining insight into the fevered imaginings of a US think-tank.

A glance at Eurasia on a world map, and with the knowledge that it contains perhaps over 70% of the worlds population and a great deal of its resources, and then knowing that we can build bullet-trains and heavy freight rail, and fibre-optic networks and economic unions and unions of economic unions and so on, the trajectories are self-evident. Peace, stability, trade and development between the immovable object that sits at the centre (Russia) and the likes of Germany and China and India mean increasingly massive flows of wealth over which the established ruling economic order governing the United States and close associates like the UK would play an ever more peripheral role, in terms of economic power anyway. Basically if you're basis is an Atlanticist world, you probably don't want t see an increasingly Eurasiacentric world emerge... as is doing so, slowly but inevitable. By the way discussing the political and economic dimension of the Eurasian continent is not the sole preserve of your Dugin and the fash, any more than discussions of great games are the sole invention of Brzinski (as VP for no reason in my opinion pointed out above).

A divided Europe and Russia means a stronger China and United States, a stronger China and Russia means a weaker United States and Europe, a closer Russia and Europe means a weaker China and United States. My assertions? Not really, just my example of the zero-sum thinking of some people that are making decisions that have outcomes; for instance some little old East Ukraine lady complaining about Delta Force getting into her lettuce-patch again.
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With wading through the second paragraph, where shall we begin? I appreciate your command of history, but with my Kool Aid-addled Atlanticist mind 'civilisational space' is nevertheless familiar, so I'm just wondering where you picked it up from. Those fringe pro-Novorossiya blogs you've been visiting? It didn't just 'pop' in there, did it?

Euro-Soviet-Empire.jpg

The sources of information you use to counter 'liberals' here regularly reveal anti-Semitism, racism, and fascism. You don't know what you're playing with.

I suspect Casually Google does, though (Russians earlier described in racial terms). You can have a known Nazi presented as a leftist in a photo greeting Italian 'communitarian' fascists in Donetsk. You can have the involvement of naive Stalinist mugs used to show the left character of the separatist side when they are fighting alongside people who are quite open about what they stand for. You can have the involvement of Russian nationalists with 'red-brown' links to the early 1990s ignored in favour of some non-existent, widespread popular socialist movement in eastern Ukraine.
 
seventh bullet said:
With wading through the second paragraph, where shall we begin? I appreciate your command of history, but with my Kool Aid-addled Atlanticist mind 'civilisational space' is nevertheless familiar, so I'm just wondering where you picked it up from. Those fringe pro-Novorossiya blogs you've been visiting? It didn't just 'pop' in there, did it?

View attachment 70301

The sources of information you use to counter 'liberals' here regularly reveal anti-Semitism, racism, and fascism. You don't know what you're playing with.

I suspect Casually Google does, though (Russians earlier described in racial terms). You can have a known Nazi presented as a leftist in a photo greeting Italian 'communitarian' fascists in Donetsk. You can have the involvement of naive Stalinist mugs used to show the left character of the separatist side when they are fighting alongside people who are quite open about what they stand for. You can have the involvement of Russian nationalists with 'red-brown' links to the early 1990s ignored in favour of some non-existent, widespread popular socialist movement in eastern Ukraine.
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Yes I do read a range of opinions on these things, I make a point of looking at deltas from the mainstream narrative. I wonder if having a grasp of the 'pro-Novorrosia' position makes me a deviant now. No I'm not into Dugin, still not sure why you think I'm a Duginist just because I said 'civilizational space', I'd come across Dugin before I ever saw him mentioned by you or the other one here on urban75. I read an essay about him and the concern in the west that Russian generals were following him around in little wide-eyed flocks.. like ideology-ducklings or something. An outline of his ideas seemed like a load of vague bollocks to me to be fair, perhaps his ideas are simply beyond my ken. I reckon he gets lots of attention in the West because he looks like Rasputin, and of course there's that creepy star.

Nonetheless the concept of the civilizational space is one I came across in a treatment of China long before I ever saw that funny eight-pointed star you seem to see everywhere. The idea that China is not just a nation in the conventional sense of the word, but a world within itself, distinct from that which is not China. A civilisational-space. Yeah it's all very interesting, probably just comes down to big history really.

I'm not interested in these people you must have been locking horns with for a long time over there in wherever you live, just sum me up as anti-NATO and stop trying to attach conspirajewophobe crap to my position, there's nothing wacky and out-there about being anti-NATO.
 
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camouflage said:
Yes I do read a range of opinions on these things, I make a point of looking at deltas from the mainstream narrative. I wonder if having a grasp of the 'pro-Novorrosia' position makes me a deviant now. No I'm not into Dugin, still not sure why you think I'm a Duginist just because.......
.....just sum me up as anti-NATO and stop trying to attach conspirajewophobe crap to my position, there's nothing wacky and out-there about being anti-NATO.
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But how else are they supposed to undermine you're points if they can't misrepresent you as some sort of closet fascist or duginist or whatever dirty tackle from behind is on the menu ? Mention mackinder and you'll be accused of the exact same thing . Despite the fact omitting mackinder when discussing geo politics is like omitting Freud when discussing pyschoanalysis . Or Marx when discussing socialism .

You're anti NATO therefore there has to be something wrong with you .
 
camouflage said:
Yes I do read a range of opinions on these things, I make a point of looking at deltas from the mainstream narrative. I wonder if having a grasp of the 'pro-Novorrosia' position makes me a deviant now. No I'm not into Dugin, still not sure why you think I'm a Duginist just because I said 'civilizational space', I'd come across Dugin before I ever saw him mentioned by you or the other one here on urban75. I read an essay about him and the concern in the west that Russian generals were following him around in little wide-eyed flocks.. like ideology-ducklings or something. An outline of his ideas seemed like a load of vague bollocks to me to be fair, perhaps his ideas are simply beyond my ken. I reckon he gets lots of attention in the West because he looks like Rasputin, and of course there's that creepy star.

Nonetheless the concept of the civilizational space is one I came across in a treatment of China long before I ever saw that funny eight-pointed star you seem to see everywhere. The idea that China is not just a nation in the conventional sense of the word, but a world within itself, distinct from that which is not China. A civilisational-space. Yeah it's all very interesting, probably just comes down to big history really.

I'm not interested in these people you must have been locking horns with for a long time over there in wherever you live, just sum me up as anti-NATO and stop trying to attach conspirajewophobe crap to my position, there's nothing wacky and out-there about being anti-NATO.
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This is childish. I have never thought or said that you are anything of the sort. You're too daft for that. You don't seem to be that bothered about examining where you get your information from. It's why you link to the 'conspirajewphobe' sites rather than being one.
 
Here's a bit of up-to-date sociological data. The polling organisations I've looked at all have some data translated into English on their sites, but considerably less is available than in rus/ukr. The large, relatively interesting KIIS presentation is not available in English, I don't think.

First a map for the polling 'Macro-regions' where results are given by area, which they are in the bigger KIIS study below. Disregard the %s on it.
398x288.jpg


'The Socio-Political Situation in Ukraine'
http://kiis.com.ua/materials/pr/20152603_ratings/Ukraine2000_Results3.pdf
Polls carried out Feb-March 2015, with 2040 respondents from all regions of Ukraine, excluding Crimea, including Donetsk and Lugansk oblasts, but only those parts under governmental control.
...p.19 Do you support the anti-terrorist operation (ATO) in eastern Ukraine?
West: “(Somewhat or strongly) No” 27% ; “(Somewhat or strongly) Yes” 64.4% ; Declined to answer 8.5%
Centre: ...No 36.4% ; ...Yes 50.9% ; Declined to answer 12.7%
South: ...No 57.7% ; ...Yes 28.5% ; Declined to answer 13.8%
East: ...No 60.1% ; ...Yes 31.0% ; Declined to answer 8.9%
Donbass: ...No 82.9% ; ...Yes 4.9% ; Declined to answer 12.2%

"The Political Situation in Ukraine. Ratings of Parties and Politicians"
http://rb.com.ua/img/Prezentation_ps_03_2015_russ.pdf
Polls from March 2015, with 1501 respondents from all regions of Ukraine, excluding Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts and Crimea.

...p.10 Do you support the ATO ongoing in Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts? (All respondents)
On the whole, Yes 47% ; On the whole, No 39% ; Difficult to say 14%


p.11 Which type of resolution to the crisis in eastern Ukraine would you choose? (All respondents)
Use of force to restore control 24% ; Settlement through talks 66% ; Difficult to say 10%
2yoqtsg.jpg

(Page 11 also shows a 9% decline in support for the use of force (red) since Nov 2014.)


Back to the KIIS paper:

p.22 Which approach to the current military conflict in Donbass do you consider most acceptable?
(From, “Military action” / “Continuation of talks and a peaceful resolution” / “Hard to say, Declined to answer”)
West: Force 27% ; Talks 60.8% ; Don't know 12.2%
Centre: Force 29% ; Talks 60.5% ; Don't know 10.5%
South: Force 8.4% ; Talks 87% ; Don't know 4.6%
East: Force 10.6% ; Talks 83.4% ; Don't know 6%
Donbass: Force 0.8% ; Talks 92.7% ; Don't know 6.5%

p.23 Question put to those answering 'Talks' in the previous Q.:
A peaceful resolution is only possible through compromise. In your view, which concessions should Ukraine make to the DNR & LNR territories for the sake of peace? Some examples from the list, with % respondents finding the suggestion acceptable:
...
Grant official language status to Russian in specific territories 81.1%
Pay out pensions and due welfare payments to all Donbass residents 78.2%
Call local elections in the DNR & LNR 52.5%
Abandon NATO membership 50.3%
Set a referendum on the future status of the Donetsk & Lugansk oblasts 44.6%
Recognise independence for DNR & LNR 22.2%
Recognise unification of Crimea with Russia 19.2%
etc.
qnqnf5.jpg


p.27 What status do you think the Donetsk and Lugansk oblasts should have?
Oblasts of Ukraine, with normal rights as such 37.7%
Oblasts of Ukraine, but with additional rights 37.9%
Autonomous Ukrainian republics 10.7%
Independent states 3.1%
Autonomous Russian republics 0.6%
Oblasts of Russia 0.6%
Hard to say 9.3%
 
Razumkov Centre polls (some of which have been translated, e.g. this one on trust in institutions, quite well backed up by Research&Branding's polls):

Research carried out by the sociological service of the Razumkov Centre from 6-12 March 2015, with 2009 respondents, 18+, from all regions of Ukraine excluding Crimea and occupied areas of the Donetsk & Lugansk oblasts.
“How do you view the possibility of the West providing lethal weaponry to Ukraine?”
http://razumkov.org.ua/ukr/poll.php?poll_id=1027
  • Provision of weapons to Ukraine is necessary to Ukrainian forces' ability to stop any future Russian-armed separatist aggression. 42.4%
  • Provision of weapons to Ukraine is an obstacle to a peaceful solution, and may escalate armed conflict 34.6%
  • Provision of weapons to Ukraine would not fundamentally change the situation 11.2%
  • Too hard to say 11.7%

Also March 2015, 2009 respondents, 18+, excl. Donetsk, Lugansk oblasts & Crimea:
"How do you characterise the DNR & LNR?"
http://razumkov.org.ua/ukr/poll.php?poll_id=1025
  • Terrorist organisations, with no right to represent the territories' inhabitants 66.1%
  • Representatives of inhabitants of their respective territories 19.6%
  • Hard to say 14.2%

Back to the KIIS paper (2040 respondents, incl. the parts of Donetsk & Lugansk under government control):
p.21 “The Donetsk and Lugansk Peoples' Republics are terrorist organisations."
Somewhat or strongly disagree, or Somewhat or strongly agree?
West: Disagree 11.4% ; Agree 74% ; Hard to say 14.5%
Central: Disagree 7.9% ; Agree 77.2% ; Hard to say 14.9%
South: Disagree 23.8% ; Agree 52.3% ; Hard to say 23.8%
East: Disagree 29.8% ; Agree 38.2% ; Hard to say 32%
Donbass: Disagree 43.1% ; Agree 26% ; Hard to say 30.9%

p.17 "Imagine a referendum is called on Ukraine joining NATO. Imagine you can vote for, against, or abstain."
West: Against 14.9% ; For 63% ; Would not vote 4.9% ; Declined to answer 17.2%
Centre: Against 28% ; For 47.3% ; Would not vote 9.4% ; Declined 15.3%
South: Against 54.8% ; For 24.7% ; Would not vote 14.2% ; Declined 6.3%
East: Against 49.5% ; For 26.3% ; Would not vote 12.7% ; Declined 11.5%
Donbass: Against 51.2% ; For 26% ; Would not vote 12.2% ; Declined 10.6%

The party- and candidate-political polling from the three centres is interesting too, generally showing a 13-20% "Would not vote," plus 21-24% "Don't know" response in hypothetical snap presidential elections, for example.
 
Ukraine govt have now banned soviet symbols and singing the internationale. Fairly obviously targeted at the russian speakers and organisations like the communist party. Grim stuff :(
 
frogwoman said:
Ukraine govt have now banned soviet symbols and singing the internationale. Fairly obviously targeted at the russian speakers and organisations like the communist party. Grim stuff :(
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I read about that at the weekend. Combatting extremism. The same act also rehabilitated the UPA and others declaring them Ukrainian patriots.
 
camouflage said:
Indeed! One thing that strikes me about the fugee-flood from the coasts of North Africa as well as other routes is how it's never asked why there are so many people struggling to get to Dover now... it's just taken as given, "of course all these brown and black people want to get into Europe, our society is just so much better than the 3rd-world mud-pits from which they originate". It never seems to come up in these reports about Italian rescue boats and rafts packed with hundreds of bedraggled Somali-looking folk what they are fleeing from, usually it's assumed they're after our benefits because soft-touch Britain. Nothing to do with our various interventions in Libya, Mali, Somalia, Afganistan, Iraq and Syria etc.... nothing to do with neo-liberal reign over the economies and policies the nations that arguably require the most sovereign public spending and government regulation just to build up their societies enough (after the ravages of colonialism and other nightmares) to stop the prime of their people having to stream away to go scrub toilet floors in hostile tight-faced Ireland or somewhere just to survive.

If all this Ukraine stuff is how we treat the human 'bug-splat' of Western policies in a place where white people live, what hope do African, Asian and Middle-Eastern snake-head freight have. I bet any money that if Ukrainian refugees were also to head for Dover at least UKIP would pipe up on Ukraine more (not that they'd bother going beyond a rightarded analysis of things, but noise is noise...).
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"From which they originate"

Please expand.
 
frogwoman said:
In Latvia at the moment. Saw some neo-nazi russian stickers. :(
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I just left Estonia. Didn't see any Fascist stuff at all but wasn't looking for it either. They sure hate Russia.....have a small segment of the Berlin wall outside their Museum Of Occupations.
 
Alexei Mozgovoi - Ghost battalion bigwig ambushed with extreme predge.

Some controversial comments made during a trial. The vid is online, but no subs.
If tomorrow I see in a cafe, in a pub even one young lady, she will be arrested ... А woman should be the guardian of the hearth, the mother. And what kind of mothers do they become after pubs? ... A woman should stay in the house baking pirozhki and only celebrate [meaning "drink" in this context] on the International Women's Day. It is time to remember that you are Russian! It is time to get your spirituality back!
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Here he is with our Brazilian loon pal.

russian fash.jpg
 
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