Ukraine

[Casually Red]

Wouldn't want to wonder into a pub-full anyway. So given racist and antisemetic, given ethno-nationalist, given red and white and black flag and general all-round extreme right-winginess, what is different about these guys ideology and 'western' fascist groups? Having a big fuck-off orthodox cross on their nazi-flag is a bit like having a star-of-david or an arc-and-star isn't it? When they face up against Galician fascists and their associates for instance I wonder if they do the salute (y'know, nazi-to-nazi) before lobbing over a grenade.

Not that a grasp of the mindset of any of these Adventurers and Wild-men makes squit-difference to the people of the Donbass right now of course, any more than a knowledge of what the Adventurers and Wild-men think they're doing in Syria or Libya really.

As far as I can make out the bulk of Russian neo nazis have been extremely hostile to the novorussia uprising from the outset. Reports from last year in the western msm about Russian neo nazis comprising the largest international component of the ukrainian fascist volunteer groups would seem to back that contention up .
There's a YouTube video of a fascist rally were each of the respective fash groups are identified according to their stance on novorussia..the vast majority opposed to it. Also a quote at the end from an outfit called wotanjugend outlining why Russian fascists have in the main adopted that stance which directly refers to the predominance at the beginning of communists, their emblems and iconography in the uprising against kievs junta. alongside Putin whom they hate as much as Lenin.

also some good footage of the first exclusively communist battalion on the novorussian side, presumably the same punters who were racing about with tanks draped in che Guevara flags . Their commissar explains a lot of the background to it. Sadly it appears the leftist forces which predominated at the beginning dithered and bickered among themselves as usual. As well as assuming in good communist fashion that the party would have a plan and programme for them. Turned out there was none and when the penny dropped they just went and organised themselves. Probably too late as it looks like they've been totally outflanked at this point by political forces with plans well different to theirs. They've serious problems getting even basic materiel and get next to no support from the powers that be, obviously seen as a threat to various fiefdoms that sprung up while the left dithered and bickered. They were heavily engaged in the battles around debaltseve and strike me as having the most militant attitude against the ceasefire. Many of them hail from regions of Ukraine under fascist control, who can't return to their homes and who talk of the awful prospect of their children being brought up as fascists if this new regime isn't overthrown . Communist members of the international fighters also have been seeking them out to join them as opposed to other units. They also make clear that a very large proportion of the novorussian grass roots fighters are communist inclined as well. Despite that though they fear a purge against themselves as they grow bigger and become more organised.

If I can figure out how to link to YouTube using this iPad thingy I'll post them up. A far better analysis coming from what's being said there by fash and communist alike than the shit analysis which predominates here...which seems to consist of little more than a few pics of some little group with a flag who may well have just turned for the weekend for a pic and then fucked off home without firing a shot. And that then being presented as proof of ideological equivalence on both sides. Which is utter horseshit but no less than one would expect.

Oh yeah...the Kiev junta have now officially outlawed communism , its promotion and it's emblems in the regions under their control.

 

[Casually Red]

posting this just to balance the dodgy source in your link there...

Usual dodge from the guardian, lifting its tale directly from a junta mouthpiece and questioning nothing. Even a half decent journalist would have alluded to the fact the commander in question , Motorola, endured a storm of controversy and abuse last year when it emerged that despite his encirclement of Donetsk airport he'd been allowing food and medical supplies into the besieged Ukrainian forces. And he'd personally met and shook the hand of the regular military commander on the other side. His defence at the time was he only wanted to defeat them, not liquidate them to a man. And he thought the handshake was an important reminder basic humanity had to prevail. he went from hero to villain overnight among many of his former supporters.

Was all over the place that controversy but no mention of it from the liberals who've just repeated that rubbish from the junta like the usuals faithful nodding dogs they are. Allowing them food and medicine just to shoot them after they surrender doesn't strike me as a very plausible a scenario.

 

[Casually Red]

Also some interesting background to that fat fascist bastard givi was slapping about . A big shot apparently , Oleg Mikats, commander of the 93rd mechanised
And no less than a leading light in the right sector to boot as a prominent candidate on their electoral list . Out and out nazi who's on video threatening to personally murder certain journalists, arrogant bullyboy . Also turns out he was present when Motorola was filmed shaking hands with his predecessor, kupol, whom it appears was sacked in disgrace for soiling his pure Ukrainian hand by shaking motorolas . He may well have been behind that ousting. he was in the video and looked to be in command of kupol, none too happy at him chatting with the enemy .

As Motorola was present when givi was slapping him about, and asked him directly why the hell did he lead his entire force into an all out slaughter, there was a lot more going there than givi being a thug just for the sake of it .

The videos on live leak entitled Motorola meets Uaf battalion commander . It's pretty clear from that video neither Motorola nor kupol wanted any more of their men to die. Motorola himself was clearly injured too . He was also stressing the only people being affected by the shelling were the local civilian population, another source of givi anger . Unsurpringly the resident liberals don't stick up any vids of Oleg Mikats handiwork in that regard
Just whine about a nazi getting a few slaps for his trouble after blatantly breaking a ceasefire and getting all his men killed in a madcap escapade that just caused more destruction .

 

[seventh bullet]

The foreign Stalinists you talk about were a part of the Prizrak (Ghost) battalion, a motley collection also containing 'post-third-positionist'/neo-Eurasianist kilt-wearers and Jew-haters. Same with the (mixed) Vostok battalion. Any Communists going over there looking for the establishment of something 'socialist,' Stalin-like or otherwise, are mugs. Russian nationalism (a lot of it hardline) informed by a post-Soviet Eurasianist geopolitical trend is the order of the day (and if it becomes an Abkhazia-like state integrated with neoliberal Russia then the Stalinists and crypto-fascist weirdos will be disappointed with Putin).

Your hero Givi might wind up dead eventually, although not at Kiev's hands. A motorcyclist shot up his car in Donetsk not so long back.

 

[seventh bullet]

Barkashov Junior's tiny volunteer force of gutter Nazis was welcomed in that aforementioned photo by the far-right weirdos already talked about, who are involved in the Prizrak battalion. No-one here has said that Nazis specifically have been a major force in the separatist side or has been seeking to exaggerate their influence. Likewise it's daft to paint a picture of a large left (albeit Stalinist) influence. You'll of course comment on posts from people you're supposedly ignoring, but won't reply directly.

 

[camouflage]

Interesting article re Western casualties in East Ukraine and the Debaltsevo pocket:

- Polish PMC «ASBS Othago» - 394 people (killed and wounded)
- American PMC "Greystone" -180 people,
- American PMC "Asademi" (until 2009 known as Blackwater) - 269 people.
Baltic sniper women lost 26 people. CIA - 25 people.

1.Soldiers of UK Airborne Service - about 20 people
2. The military forces of SOF (Special Operations Forces) of the United States - about 15 people
3.Soldiers of Foreign French Legion - 10 people.
4.Polish military -10 people
4.Soldiers from Israel -10 people.
5.Soldiers from Croatia -10 people.

http://en.voicesevas.ru/news/3613-l...to-mercenaries-in-donbass.html#sel=11:2,12:15

 

[seventh bullet]

And?

 

[camouflage]

And?

We are in a war against Russia.

 

[seventh bullet]

No I'm not. Yesterday, a Russian friend was showing me a video via VKontakte of her holiday to Zanzibar last year when two giant tortoises unexpectedly decided to have sex.

 

[camouflage]

No I'm not. Yesterday, a Russian friend was showing me a video via VKontakte of her holiday to Zanzibar last year when two giant tortoises unexpectedly decided to have sex.

That's nice, 'some of my best freinds are Russian'. Our governments have sent armed forces to engage in conflicts against what they consider to be Russian and Russian backed forces in Ukraine, blood has been spilt and lives lost in that context. I for one find this concerning, as I found it concerning reading Colonel Cassads blog and seeing that in Russia that's what people are thinking... 'Americas attacks against us'.

 

[seventh bullet]

That's nice, 'some of my best freinds are Russian'. Our governments have sent armed forces to engage in conflicts against what they consider to be Russian and Russian backed forces in Ukraine, blood has been spilt and lives lost in that context. I for one find this concerning, as I found it concerning reading Colonel Cassads blog and seeing that in Russia that's what people are thinking... 'Americas attacks against us'.

A tiny few have been and still are.

You're looking to be mates with people who would kill you.

 

[Teaboy]

Our governments have sent armed forces to engage in conflicts against what they consider to be Russian and Russian backed forces in Ukraine, blood has been spilt and lives lost in that context. I for one find this concerning, as I found it concerning reading Colonel Cassads blog and seeing that in Russia that's what people are thinking... 'Americas attacks against us'.

Whilst I don't doubt that Western special forces are active in Ukraine, after all governments have been doing this sort of shit for years. However, calling it at war is a bit hyperbolic. Also I'm not sure it does your credibility much good to continually demand evidence when anyone suggests direct Russian involvment but you accept these figures (which the source even admits is based on assumptions) as gospel. Perhaps you could point to anywhere apart from Russia media where these numbers are corroborated, or should we just accept that everything from Russia is truth and everything from Western media = lies?

The sad thing is that when this thread started there were plenty who noted the worrying involvment of the far right in Ukraine, you seem to want to polorise everything to simply good v bad. A lot of the stuff you post here is of interest and you do a good job of highlighting how the conflict is seen elsewhere, particuarly in Russia, but your analysis is so partisan that it's hard to take serioiusly, which is unfortunate.

 

[camouflage]

A tiny few have been and still are.

You're looking to be mates with people who would kill you.

What's wrong with you... where am I looking to be mates with people who would kill me, and which people, the Russians? You want me to drink the KoolAid too and support the Brzinski move against them, this attempt to "sweep the leg" in Ukraine because they are "people who would kill me"?

This isn't about making friends fella, it's about nuclear war is scary and disturbing and an ever more a concerning possibility every day. At least we now know why France and Germany were in such a scramble re the Debaltsevo situation. In the West they talk about Russian military support to East Ukraine all the time but the Western role (in contravention of Minsk agreement) is ignored. There's no accountability for what we're doing there. The media reports about Russian mothers asking how their sons died (something about US NGOs in the background of that little campaign) when do you think they'll be Hereford wives for instance asking over here where their husbands died?

Anyway Debaltsevo was a while ago and now the junta have remained to weak after their last drubbing to attack again n significant force (Yarosh's probe in the last few days aside). every day is a gift though at this rate.

 

[seventh bullet]

What's wrong with you... where am I looking to be mates with people who would kill me, and which people, the Russians? You want me to drink the KoolAid too and support the Brzinski move against them, this attempt to "sweep the leg" in Ukraine because they are "people who would kill me"?

This isn't about making friends fella, it's about nuclear war is scary and disturbing and an ever more a concerning possibility every day. At least we now know why France and Germany were in such a scramble re the Debaltsevo situation. In the West they talk about Russian military support to East Ukraine all the time but the Western role (in contravention of Minsk agreement) is ignored. There's no accountability for what we're doing there. The media reports about Russian mothers asking how their sons died (something about US NGOs in the background of that little campaign) when do you think they'll be Hereford wives for instance asking over here where their husbands died?

Anyway Debaltsevo was a while ago and now the junta have remained to weak after their last drubbing to attack again n significant force (Yarosh's probe in the last few days aside). every day is a gift though at this rate.

?

 

[teqniq]

Ukraine: Fighting breaks out again despite ceasefire monitors

 

[camouflage]

Whilst I don't doubt that Western special forces are active in Ukraine, after all governments have been doing this sort of shit for years. However, calling it at war is a bit hyperbolic. Also I'm not sure it does your credibility much good to continually demand evidence when anyone suggests direct Russian involvment but you accept these figures (which the source even admits is based on assumptions) as gospel. Perhaps you could point to anywhere apart from Russia media where these numbers are corroborated, or should we just accept that everything from Russia is truth and everything from Western media = lies?

The sad thing is that when this thread started there were plenty who noted the worrying involvment of the far right in Ukraine, you seem to want to polorise everything to simply good v bad. A lot of the stuff you post here is of interest and you do a good job of highlighting how the conflict is seen elsewhere, particuarly in Russia, but your analysis is so partisan that it's hard to take serioiusly, which is unfortunate.

Maybe I just find Western lies more of a threat to my own health. Besides I don't believe Russia is telling the lies the west says it is. Frankly I wish more people in our society would see this situation as 'alarmistly' as I do, I think people are not taking this thing seriously enough, they are letting the likes of McCain and Nuland and Kerry run around doing stuff and nodding along sanguinely to the stuff the frankly unsound Western media says is happening. Meanwhile Western boots on the ground are getting body-bagged and nobody here is saying anything. It's like being in a car as it spins across an eight-line highway with a plastic manikin at the wheel labelled "those damn Ruskies eh, ".

 

[camouflage]

Ukraine: Fighting breaks out again despite ceasefire monitors

Your link there has credibility issues as it's essentially a party in the war (ok for wildlife documentaries though).

Here's the osce link instead for more information: http://www.osce.org/node/150696

 

[teqniq]

Lol

 

[Diamond]

We are in a war against Russia.

 

[DotCommunist]

we have always been at war with eurasia

 

[Casually Red]

Maybe I just find Western lies more of a threat to my own health. Besides I don't believe Russia is telling the lies the west says it is. Frankly I wish more people in our society would see this situation as 'alarmistly' as I do, I think people are not taking this thing seriously enough, they are letting the likes of McCain and Nuland and Kerry run around doing stuff and nodding along sanguinely to the stuff the frankly unsound Western media says is happening. Meanwhile Western boots on the ground are getting body-bagged and nobody here is saying anything. It's like being in a car as it spins across an eight-line highway with a plastic manikin at the wheel labelled "those damn Ruskies eh, ".

I was watching a vid a while back where a few novorussian soldiers took a camera with them on patrol around the devastated districts approaching Donetsk airport . Most of the place was wrecked and deserted . On their beat they met this lone middle aged woman and they stopped to chat . She was relating about how it takes her an hour to walk to the centre of Donetsk to get her supplies, soldiers seemed upset she was walking that distance alone and told her to ask them for a lift anytime she needed it . She didn't seem too keen and avoided the subject ..sad she preferred to walk for the exercise . Then calm as you like starts talking about us special forces trying to break through into the area from a bank of reeds Behind her house a few days previously and being pushed back . Just totally matter of fact .

Obviously she could be wrong but there's a definite perception on the ground there from civilian and combatant alike that western armed forces are in their midst . That's well troubling .

 

[ViolentPanda]

?

He appears to be making the assumption that because you're contradicting him, you must hold a particular set of views, and be part of the Russophobe conspiracy he's discovered and is railing against.

 

[camouflage]

He appears to be making the assumption that because you're contradicting him, you must hold a particular set of views, and be part of the Russophobe conspiracy he's discovered and is railing against.

He's highlighted my mention of a "Brzinski move" against Russia, perhaps in an attempt to rubbish the proposition that the United States is following a strategy to undermine Russia as a state and pursue regime-change there with the ultimate goal of dominating the Eurasian continent, whose importance has already been outlined by Zbigniew Brzinski and notorious think-tank Stratfor. To go after Ukraine as has been done, is the US attempt to 'sweep the leg" of the Russian civilizational space. Obviously "?" implies that all this this is conspiraloonatic twaddle.

 

[ViolentPanda]

He's highlighted my mention of a "Brzinski move" against Russia, perhaps in an attempt to rubbish the proposition that the United states is following a strategy to undermine Russia as a state and pursue regime-change there with the ultimate goal of dominating the Eurasian continent, whose importance has already been outlined by Zbigniew Brzinski and indeed by the likes of notorious think-tank Stratfor.

Perhaps because the doctrine pre-dates Brzezinski's 1970s maunderings by at least 80 years - the British, French and others all formulated and practiced similar though less all-encompassing strategies in the latter half of the 19th century, in-between trying to bind the Tsarist empire by treaty through menacing her borders. The history makes sense of the current policy, at least in geopolitical terms, as well as showing that "nothing ever changes".

 

[seventh bullet]

I highlighted it because I am seeking to understand why you have arrogantly (and inaccurately) decided a position for me that I do not hold. Someone always has to be fitted into your binary Black/White, Good/Bad understanding of the world.

Where did you pick up Russian 'civilisational space,' camouflage? (of which Ukraine is seen as important). Alexander Dugin via Samuel P. Huntington and Jean Thiriart?

The present US-led encirclement and aim to weaken Russia in the competition for the former Soviet Union's periphery is nothing new. Like ViolentPanda says, it reaches far back. Contemporary Eurasianism in Russia and the CIS (not just Dugin) makes use of it too, using (and in some cases inverting) western thinking.

 

[SovietArmy]

Not sure why you gave smile on this post. Reality is not funny at all. Refugees from Ukraine is flooding to Russia. People are afraid of war panicking even Baltic States on alert I should blame Western powers for this mess.

 

[Teaboy]

I blame everyone.

Also people linked to the old regime seem to keep dying in Kiev in mysterious circumstances. Even if some sort of peace is achieved I worry for the people of Eastern Ukraine.

 

[camouflage]

I highlighted it because I am seeking to understand why you have arrogantly (and inaccurately) decided a position for me that I do not hold. Someone always has to be fitted into your binary Black/White, Good/Bad understanding of the world.

Where did you pick up Russian 'civilisational space,' camouflage? (of which Ukraine is seen as important). Alexander Dugin via Samuel P. Huntington and Jean Thiriart?

The present US-led encirclement and aim to weaken Russia in the competition for the former Soviet Union's periphery is nothing new. Like ViolentPanda says, it reaches far back. Contemporary Eurasianism in Russia and the CIS (not just Dugin) makes use of it too, using (and in some cases inverting) western thinking.

Where have I arrogantly (and inaccurately) decided a position for you that you do not hold, when I asked you a question? Here it is in a different form, why do you tell me I am looking to be mates with people who would kill me, what relevance do you think this statement holds in relation to the position I have outlined on the thread so far?

I have not said the whole Eurasian 'great-game' thing was only invented last teusday, Violent Panda responded to my post where I talk about Brzinksi and Stratfor as if I had claimed this was something fashionable and new. I don't need to refer to the Victorian era policies of Britain toward Russia when discussing the latest incarnation of essentially the same old shite. I have a deep appreciation of the historical perspective generally, but Russia and China in particular are like mountains of history, perhaps the sheer volume of history in lives and space imposes a sort of gravitational field... a 'civilizational space', such that transcends states and even nations, a canyon country of history formed by long running rivers of blood... figuratively speaking, structures in the cultural landscape that impose their own political imperatives or whatever, across religious, racial, language differences. But anyway, in sum I'm not here to talk books at people, but The Next 100 Years is an entertaining insight into the fevered imaginings of a US think-tank.

A glance at Eurasia on a world map, and with the knowledge that it contains perhaps over 70% of the worlds population and a great deal of its resources, and then knowing that we can build bullet-trains and heavy freight rail, and fibre-optic networks and economic unions and unions of economic unions and so on, the trajectories are self-evident. Peace, stability, trade and development between the immovable object that sits at the centre (Russia) and the likes of Germany and China and India mean increasingly massive flows of wealth over which the established ruling economic order governing the United States and close associates like the UK would play an ever more peripheral role, in terms of economic power anyway. Basically if you're basis is an Atlanticist world, you probably don't want t see an increasingly Eurasiacentric world emerge... as is doing so, slowly but inevitable. By the way discussing the political and economic dimension of the Eurasian continent is not the sole preserve of your Dugin and the fash, any more than discussions of great games are the sole invention of Brzinski (as VP for no reason in my opinion pointed out above).

A divided Europe and Russia means a stronger China and United States, a stronger China and Russia means a weaker United States and Europe, a closer Russia and Europe means a weaker China and United States. My assertions? Not really, just my example of the zero-sum thinking of some people that are making decisions that have outcomes; for instance some little old East Ukraine lady complaining about Delta Force getting into her lettuce-patch again.

 

[camouflage]

Not sure why you gave smile on this post. Reality is not funny at all. Refugees from Ukraine is flooding to Russia. People are afraid of war panicking even Baltic States on alert I should blame Western powers for this mess.

I was kind of sickened by that response too, I've read some of the other stuff Diamonds come out with though so wouldn't bother yourself much. I am pretty sure that in the west the whole question of refugees is being wilfully ignored by the media because most of em head to Russia, which of course doesn't fit the narrative; Russia evil and hated, an alien force that has no place involving itself in the affairs of a West-Europe orientated Ukraine etc, Russia the reckless adventurer intent on a revanched empire and not at the end of the day the country that will have to deal with and pay for the bulk of the 'fallout' from all this shit, even when it's all over (hopefully sans mushrooms) and "someone" gets the bill to rebuild Donbas.

So yes, British soldiers and US soldiers have now died on black-missions in Ukraine. I'm supposed to vote soonish to select a party to run Britain for the next few years, which of the parties are even interested in discussing UK military involvement in Ukraine in light of Victoria Nuland and her interfering billions or the presence of the extreme right as a founding pillar of the new regime or the continued reign of corruption and oligarchs in Ukraine that's been unchanged since the Maidan etc... which party do I vote for that will promise to seek a de-escalation in the tension and now military conflict against a nuclear armed nation with a history of seriously kicking-off when provoked, which party should I vote for might be interested in either explaining what is so worth the risks of this profoundly dangerous game of chicken, let alone discuss the possibility of a far more independent foreign policy for Britain rather than slavishly following US initiatives or spending billions on Trident and calling that independence (it's not, UK's nuclear deterrent is merely the US ankle-38, basically we're the USS Blighty with some on board nukes)?

None of the above probably. at least the likes of Diamond is amused "UK soldiers are dying on bullshit errands in Ukraine attacking local Ukrainian-Russians right next door to nuclear-arsenal Russias borders. lol, smileyface, wink, thumbs".

 

[Teaboy]

I was kind of sickened by that response too, I've read some of the other stuff Diamonds come out with though so wouldn't bother yourself much. I am pretty sure that in the west the whole question of refugees is being wilfully ignored by the media because most of em head to Russia, which of course doesn't fit the narrative; .

Fuck, if the plight of African refugees drowning in their hundreds if not thousands just off the coast of Europe can be largly ignored what hope do the people of Eastern Ukraine have?