Ukraine

[seventh bullet]

.

Yeah?

 

[co-op]

Some very pissed off looking Ukrainian troops retreating from Debaltseve on TV. Obviously not an ordered withdrawal as Poroshenko has been saying - obvious I know - but I wonder what those troops are going to do now? They have been saying that they retreated spontaneously with no orders because they were out-gunned and receiving no supplies and could see they were being surrounded. If they are writing their own orders now, Poroshenko will have a problem with them. He deserves to have, they have been treated like dirt imo, basically sent, ill-equiped, in the middle of winter into a suicidal defence that can only be justified by a belief that the Russians were going to stick to the letter of a ceasefire they happily broke only a few weeks earlier. And it always looked like the few days delay that was written into the ceasefire were there specifically so the Russians could take Debaltseve.

I don't know if they are volunteer nationalists or conscripts or just regular army, all of which will impact on how they react to this but it'll be interesting to see what happens with the Ukrainian army now. I would guess they are mightily fucked off with their own politicians now.

 

[camouflage]

Some very pissed off looking Ukrainian troops retreating from Debaltseve on TV. Obviously not an ordered withdrawal as Poroshenko has been saying - obvious I know - but I wonder what those troops are going to do now? They have been saying that they retreated spontaneously with no orders because they were out-gunned and receiving no supplies and could see they were being surrounded. If they are writing their own orders now, Poroshenko will have a problem with them. He deserves to have, they have been treated like dirt imo, basically sent, ill-equiped, in the middle of winter into a suicidal defence that can only be justified by a belief that the Russians were going to stick to the letter of a ceasefire they happily broke only a few weeks earlier. And it always looked like the few days delay that was written into the ceasefire were there specifically so the Russians could take Debaltseve.

I don't know if they are volunteer nationalists or conscripts or just regular army, all of which will impact on how they react to this but it'll be interesting to see what happens with the Ukrainian army now. I would guess they are mightily fucked off with their own politicians now.

They're fighting East Ukrainians for the most part. There are doubtless plenty of Russian volunteers among the rebels but this idea that it's columns of Russian tanks (whose moral is so high in defending their own homes) is an artifact of neo-con wishful thinking. No doubt there is Russian support to the rebel defence, rightly so in my opinion

Also the previous ceasefire didn't work because Poroshenkos forces wouldn't stop shelling civilian areas like Donetsk from the airport, or to shell Gorlovka from Debaltsvo.

In this case- the rebels asserted that Debaltsvo was in their territory as per the cease-fire agreement so the government forces should withdraw, the government forces contended that they occupied the town so it was the rebels that should withdraw. This disagreement has now been decisively resolved.

Interesting the way you characterize things though.

 

[seventh bullet]

The thousands of soldiers caught up in the recent 'cauldron' (like in Ilovaisk last summer) and got hammered by Russian-provided artillery are soldiers (career or recent conscripts under fear of imprisonment) in the army proper. The eastern volunteer and nationalist and/or fascist 'battalions' have a smaller role compared to what the Ukrainian government has been incompetently throwing at the better-motivated rebels and their Russian support (which isn't hidden). The idea of columns of Russian tanks is nonsense to most people anyway. The equipment, supplies and heavy weaponry is from over the border, and is shown in the rebels' own videos.

Sorry to contradict your latest dribbling. You're not uncovering the Truth or smashing neo-con 'artifacts.' You're talking shit as usual.

 

[camouflage]

Leader of the DPR was slightly injured around Debaltsvo...




At the same time Poroshenko was spending the lives of the men under his command to prevent loss of face. An interesting difference in approach that the two leaders have.

 

[camouflage]

The thousands of soldiers caught up in the recent 'cauldron' (like in Ilovaisk last summer) and got hammered by Russian-provided artillery are soldiers (career or recent conscripts under fear of imprisonment) in the army proper. The eastern volunteer and nationalist and/or fascist 'battalions' have a smaller role compared to what the Ukrainian government has been incompetently throwing at the better-motivated rebels and their Russian support (which isn't hidden). The idea of columns of Russian tanks is nonsense to most people anyway. The equipment, supplies and heavy weaponry is from over the border, and is shown in the rebels' own videos.

Sorry to contradict your latest dribbling. You're not uncovering the Truth or smashing neo-con 'artifacts.' You're talking shit as usual.

Interesting you should say that, considering you are not contradicting what I said but saying the same thing... but more dickishly obviously.

The voentorg is alive and well, and thank fuck- the victims of the West are usually completely defenseless.

 

[seventh bullet]

You're treating everyone else as if they're thick re shit propaganda.

You just googled 'cauldron' and came up with voentorg, right? Like the Givi shit last week.

 

[camouflage]

You're treating everyone else as if they're thick re shit propaganda.

You just googled 'cauldron' and came up with voentorg, right? Like the Givi shit last week.

christ.

 

[seventh bullet]

Quite.

The previous post was about contradicting you, btw.

 

[co-op]

They're fighting East Ukrainians for the most part. There are doubtless plenty of Russian volunteers among the rebels but this idea that it's columns of Russian tanks (whose moral is so high in defending their own homes) is an artifact of neo-con wishful thinking. No doubt there is Russian support to the rebel defence, rightly so in my opinion

Yeah, yeah. No Russia = no Eastern Rebellion, at least not a military one. I was using Russia as a shorthand because it's them that cut the deal in Minsk and them that are (obviously) breaking it until they got Debaltseve/svo. I didn't mentioned "columns of tanks" so I think that arguments with the little guys in your head, but there's hundreds of artillery shells and Grads landing - and "rightly so" according to you so basically. I'm merely acknowledging the same reality as you.

Interesting the way you characterize things though.

I wasn't taking side at all you berk, you're so dug in on one of them you think anyone who isn't next to you in the trench is an enemy. I'm interested in how those Ukrainian troops who've just been dropped in a hole full of shit by their own incompetent govt are going to react to that. Given the weakness of that govt.

 

[camouflage]

Quite.

The previous post was about contradicting you, btw.

You know what- you're such an nasty piece of work i think i prefer that.

 

[camouflage]

Yeah, yeah. No Russia = no Eastern Rebellion, at least not a military one. I was using Russia as a shorthand because it's them that cut the deal in Minsk and them that are (obviously) breaking it until they got Debaltseve/svo. I didn't mentioned "columns of tanks" so I think that arguments with the little guys in your head, but there's hundreds of artillery shells and Grads landing - and "rightly so" according to you so basically. I'm merely acknowledging the same reality as you.

What you're basically saying is that if Russia never existed everything would be fine. I mean.. that's what would be required, that Russians never lived for centuries in the area of Ukraine, that Russia itself wasn't just over the border, that Russian Ukrainians and Ukrainian Russians or (so-called) 'ethnic Russians' and Russian speakers hadn't (inconveniently) parked their history in the way of the shinning path of progress. In fact it's very similar to their aggressive placing of Russia near all those NATO bases.

Well they do live there, and Russia is next door, and yes they do have strong connections (cultural, historical, economic) to the people across the border. This inconvenient detail of history is not the work of just one man regardless of what Strelkov might say.

I wasn't taking side at all you berk, you're so dug in on one of them you think anyone who isn't next to you in the trench is an enemy. I'm interested in how those Ukrainian troops who've just been dropped in a hole full of shit by their own incompetent govt are going to react to that. Given the weakness of that govt.

I don't mean to read into your words things you aren't saying, I know how annoying that is (the 'Cool Kids' took to implying I'm an anti-semite recently, to add to their idea that I'm a Libertarian, and a Conspiracy Theorist... any old pigeon-hole nonsense they can throw at me and the other Disagreeaniks because I'm not in their gang).

It's just that it's depressing how consistently one can find oneself running up against the exact same bullshit narrative, it starts to all blur together. To speak of the Russians (or worse, "Putin") when it's the rebels whose actions are being referred to has for me become short-hand for the Guardian position.

Guardian positions lost if people start to talk about the Rebels doing this or the Rebels agreeing to that.

By the way I think we can expect the regime to collapse soon, the angry nazi's won't be happy, and the thousands of ordinary Ukrainians (those not currently dodging the draft in Russia) might soon decide it's time for another Maidan? One can hope. Either way I'm sure the Americans will continue to exploit the mess to their own advantage one way or the other.

 

[co-op]

What you're basically saying is that if Russia never existed everything would be fine. I mean.. that's what would be required, that Russians never lived for centuries in the area of Ukraine, that Russia itself wasn't just over the border, that Russian Ukrainians and Ukrainian Russians or (so-called) 'ethnic Russians' and Russian speakers hadn't (inconveniently) parked their history in the way of the shinning path of progress. In fact it's very similar to their aggressive placing of Russia near all those NATO bases.

Well they do live their, and Russia is next door. This inconvenient detail of history is not the work of just one man regardless of what Strelkov might say.
.

Nope you're still completely over-reading my post through your Russophile lens. I never said anything would be "fine" if Russia wasn't there etc etc etc, I took no moral line whatsoever on the various imperial powers or their machinations.

I was posting about how demoralised defeated soldiers might react to their own govts' obvious culpability for the shitty time they have had. About being hung out to dry in a suicidal defence of the undefendable - possibly out of wishful thinking, possibly out of the hope that the west would intervene, whatever. Left without enough food ammo or even some bloody orders from what they are saying. In the middle of a Ukrainian winter. Put in a position where in the end they just turned around and walked out - deserted in effect. It's the kind of thing that could generate a lot of anger in soldiers put through it.

That's what I posted about (imo obviously) and I've pointed it out to you again twice now.

 

[camouflage]

Nope you're still completely over-reading my post through your Russophile lens. I never said anything would be "fine" if Russia wasn't there etc etc etc, I took no moral line whatsoever on the various imperial powers or their machinations.

I was posting about how demoralised defeated soldiers might react to their own govts' obvious culpability for the shitty time they have had. About being hung out to dry in a suicidal defence of the undefendable - possibly out of wishful thinking, possibly out of the hope that the west would intervene, whatever. Left without enough food ammo or even some bloody orders from what they are saying. Put in a position where in the end they just turned around and walked out. It's the kind of thing that could generate a lot of anger in soldiers put through it.

That's what I posted about (imo obviously) and I've pointed it out to you again twice now.

That's strange...

Yeah, yeah. No Russia = no Eastern Rebellion

No idea where I got that from.

 

[co-op]

 

[seventh bullet]

What you're basically saying is that if Russia never existed everything would be fine. I mean.. that's what would be required, that Russians never lived for centuries in the area of Ukraine, that Russia itself wasn't just over the border, that Russian Ukrainians and Ukrainian Russians or (so-called) 'ethnic Russians' and Russian speakers hadn't (inconveniently) parked their history in the way of the shinning path of progress. In fact it's very similar to their aggressive placing of Russia near all those NATO bases.

Well they do live there, and Russia is next door, and yes they do have strong connections (cultural, historical, economic) to the people across the border. This inconvenient detail of history is not the work of just one man regardless of what Strelkov might say.




I don't mean to read into your words things you aren't saying, I know how annoying that is (the 'Cool Kids' took to implying I'm an anti-semite recently, to add to their idea that I'm a Libertarian, and a Conspiracy Theorist... any old pigeon-hole nonsense they can throw at me and the other Disagreeaniks because I'm not in their gang).

It's just that it's depressing how consistently one can find oneself running up against the exact same bullshit narrative, it starts to all blur together. To speak of the Russians (or worse, "Putin") when it's the rebels whose actions are being referred to has for me become short-hand for the Guardian position.

Guardian positions lost if people start to talk about the Rebels doing this or the Rebels agreeing to that.

By the way I think we can expect the regime to collapse soon, the angry nazi's won't be happy, and the thousands of ordinary Ukrainians (those not currently dodging the draft in Russia) might soon decide it's time for another Maidan? One can hope. Either way I'm sure the Americans will continue to exploit the mess to their own advantage one way or the other.

You're running up against nothing of the sort you loon.

And no-one called you an anti-Semite. You posted an article from a blog that doesn't seem to mind people talking about 'kikes' and ZOGs. Some in Novorossiya think that way too.

I think you're an idiot, not an anti-Semite.

 

[friedaweed]

The Russians are coming

RAF jets scrambled after Russian bombers seen off Cornwall

RAF jets were scrambled on Wednesday after two Russian military aircraft were seen off the Cornwall coast, the Ministry of Defence says.

The Russian Bear bombers were escorted from the UK area of interest, but did not enter sovereign airspace, it said.

Oh they've only seen off Cornwall. As you were

 

[camouflage]

You're running up against nothing of the sort you loon.

And no-one called you an anti-Semite. You posted an article from a blog that doesn't seem to mind people talking about 'kikes' and ZOGs. Some in Novorossiya think that way too.

I think you're an idiot, not an anti-Semite.

I wasn't referring to that post... you can find nasty comments in all sorts of websites, I didn't respond to your post there because I had nothing to say in that respect, I'm not greatly familiar with the Moon Over Alabama site myself though the linked article and a couple of others I've seen sourced from there have been interesting.

You must of saw my use of the term "Cool Kids" in my post above and assumed I was talking about you. lol.

Your usual method of accusing me of being nuts or a drug addict as your principal response to my arguments, as well as the way I see you and the other one 'engage' with others is enough for me to safely dismiss the value of your opinions on the quality of my intellect or anything else.

 

[seventh bullet]

You were talking about that, and you never got back to me because you aren't that careful about sources and felt like a twat.

 

[camouflage]

You were talking about that, and you never got back to me because you aren't that careful about sources and felt like a twat.

No, I am careful about sources and felt no inclination to stand up for them. I wouldn't feel the need to defend youtube if you posted a crappy comment posted under a video from there, nor would I do so if the comment was posted in a daily fail article. But what if you're right... what if some comments on the site are antisemitic... I'm not up for defending that.

Depressingly there's a lot of that sort of thing among people who think of themselves as US 'anti-imperialists' these days, you've only to start reading the comments section in some random US news site or blogue and it's all joos-this, liberals-that, and then the Rothbabble (Murray Rothbard libertarian-type bollocks) starts in. It's suspiciously consistent actually.

However I don't recall you coming back on the contents of the article itself, which is the bit I signed up for re discussion, thus I had no comment to make.

 

[seventh bullet]

Cop out. You're basically trying to use my own posts to avoid admitting your fuckwittedness.

Shite removed.

 

[mango5]

Cop out. You're basically trying to use my own posts to avoid admitting your fuckwittedness. <snip>

eta: issue resolved, nothing to see here.

 

[camouflage]

Cop out. You're basically trying to use my own posts to avoid admitting your fuckwittedness. *The kikes are the maggots of the human race, after all.

Yes. I'm using your own shitbabble to trip you up... and now you're back to your Stormcunting. Have fun with yourself.

*referring here to an anti-semetic comment he'd dug out of the site in which I had linked to an article.

 

[butchersapron]

That's banworthy racist shit right there. See you in 24 hours.

That wasn't seventh bullet endorsing the above, he was criticising camouflage for linking to sites that post or allow that stuff to be posted - the above that he's now been banned for is an actual quote from the site camouflage was recommending and has been the topic of previous discussion.

 

[mango5]

Reports can be misleading. The offending words need to be put in more context, or at least quotes, given these forums are open to Google. I am proper twitchy right now. The ban lifts at midnight in any case cos I don't think we have actual hours as an option. FridgeMagnet might want to reverse it but I'm not wading through this megathread for backstory. At the moment, y'all can suffer some mod deliberations in real time and in public.

 

[butchersapron]

Camouflage, if it was you who reported that post of seventh bullet as being anti-semitic or racist given that you were fully aware of what he was trying to do then you really are an underhanded weasel.

 

[bluescreen]

Eh, maybe avoid using such emotive language? Blame me for reporting it: I saw it and saw red. Reading back through the thread now I see where the fault lies. (Apart from with me, that is.)

ETA: PS, have written to mods requesting unbanning. FWIW

 

[butchersapron]

Reports can be misleading. The offending words need to be put in more context, or at least quotes, given these forums are open to Google. I am proper twitchy right now. The ban lifts at midnight in any case cos I don't think we have actual hours as an option. FridgeMagnet might want to reverse it but I'm not wading through this megathread for backstory. At the moment, y'all can suffer some mod deliberations in real time and in public.

Yes, it would have been better with some indication of being a quote, but given the exact same quote had been discussed a few weeks back i think that there was a reasonable expectation that it would be understood - at least by the people following the thread. No point in making a big thing out of it and certainly wouldn't expect any mods not already reading to wade through everything.

 

[bluescreen]

V glad to see seventh bullet has been restored. Someone please convey my apologies as I am understandably blocked.

 

[seventh bullet]

I'm happy that I was banned in that it shows a swift response to and intolerance of racism. I should've put the words in quotation marks so as to avoid confusion and give some context, and maybe linked to the post from where I took the quote for the benefit of those not regularly reading this thread.

I can see clearly my own stupidity in that such language can cause serious offence anyway, not just to those who aren't 'with' the developments on a thread. Apologies.