Ukraine

[gamma globulins]

That's simply how I've heard it described, from more than one source. Perhaps there is a recording bias with regards to which families survived and which were eliminated outright.

 

[J Ed]

I thought that this was an interesting read http://www.criticatac.ro/lefteast/left-sector-euromaidan-possible/

 

[DrRingDing]

Ukrainian anarcho students....

http://direct-action.org.ua/?&fn_page=1

 

[Mustn't grumble]

That's simply how I've heard it described . . .

I've heard it described that Hitler wasn't all that bad, all things considered. Thing is, they're usually anti-Jews, anti-Roma & -Sinti, anti-whatever, & on the positive side, fascists, murdering nationalists, & supporters of genocide.

It's good practice to be careful how one expresses oneself; there aren't many who like being labelled as a mitigator of genocide. (And Stalin was also a genocidist in largely causing mass starvation in early 30s Ukraine.)

 

[frogwoman]

There's also a perception that "Jews" were involved in causing the Ukrainian famine based on the fact that some of the people in Stalin's government of the time administering Ukraine were apparently Jewish.

 

[Idris2002]

There's also a perception that "Jews" were involved in causing the Ukrainian famine based on the fact that some of the people in Stalin's government of the time administering Ukraine were apparently Jewish.

I defriended an Ukrainian student I had on facebook, after she posted the following: "why are these Jews always complaining, when we Ukrainians had it worse".

 

[butchersapron]

The holdomor is a keystone of the ukranian far-right - you'll find normal people involved with others using it for their own ends. I was surprised to find a canadian mate was friendly with some dodgy people through a local memorial group they had over there.

 

[frogwoman]

I defriended an Ukrainian student I had on facebook, after she posted the following: "why are these Jews always complaining, when we Ukrainians had it worse".

Oh ffs. It's not a competition.

 

[Mustn't grumble]

. . . "why are these Jews always complaining, when we Ukrainians had it worse".

it's the new ratings war: MY genocide was worse than YOURS.

It's one reason why it is wrong to call the fascist European judeocide THE Holocaust: it was one genocide, not even the largest in human history, & even if it were it would be anti-humanist to ascribe an upper case 'h'. Such labelling has been used, as we all know, to defend Judeo-Israeli supremacism throughout the whole of Mandated Palestine. And it has contributed to that lachrimal politics used to try to defend the indefensible. As the title of Avraham Burg's book has it, 'The Holocaust Is Over'.

And it was Stalin's genocidal crime, as well as the authoritarianism & Great Russian Chauvinism of the All-Union Communist Party (bolsheviks), that helped garner support for the invading Nazis - & fuel hatred of Judaic Ukrainians. Support for the German invaders, liberators from Stalinism, had its reasons, not all of them irrational.

 

[frogwoman]

It's one reason why it is wrong to call the fascist European judeocide THE Holocaust: it was one genocide, not even the largest in human history, & even if it were it would be anti-humanist to ascribe an upper case 'h'. Such labelling has been used, as we all know, to defend Jewish Israeli supremacism throughout the whole of Mandated Palestine. And it has contributed to that lachrimal politics used to try to defend the indefensible. As the title of Avraham Burg's book has it, 'The Holocaust Is Over'.

what's this got to do with anything?

 

[J Ed]

wtf is this shit?

 

[frogwoman]

Palestine again

 

[Mustn't grumble]

The holdomor is a keystone of the ukranian far-right - you'll find normal people involved with others using it for their own ends. I was surprised to find a canadian mate was friendly with some dodgy people through a local memorial group they had over there.

Socialists & the few Marxists in the German Federal Republic vacated the political field concerning the 14 million so-called ethnic Germans driven & deported from their homes to the east, & German nationalists & fascists were their only advocates. What happened to them was a crime that 'the left' chose to ignore.

The German 'memorial' groups live on, & are a base of the CDU/CSU & worse.

Perhaps it's been the same in Ukraine.

 

[Idris2002]

The Ukraine famine may have been genocidal in its effects, but I don't think historians regard it as motivated by a deliberate intention to wipe out Ukrainians as a people. . .

 

[Mustn't grumble]

The Ukraine famine may have been genocidal in its effects, but I don't think historians regard it as motivated by a deliberate intention to wipe out Ukrainians as a people. . .

'Genocide' as a legal term, & as its coiner Lemkin advocated, doesn't require "deliberate intention to wipe out . . . a people". As the below shows, genocide, as considered by law, doesn't require mass slaughter: intent is enough - indeed, intending mass murder isn't necessary. And it can concern just a part of a human group, not all of it. And it need not involve the intent to kill anyone: suffice is intending to cause serious mental harm, or intending to introduce mass sterilisation, or intending to take away the children from a human group.

"In 1948, the UN General Assembly adopted the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide which legally defined the crime of genocide for the first time.[18]
The CPPCG was adopted by the UN General Assembly on 9 December 1948 and came into effect on 12 January 1951 (Resolution 260 (III)). It contains an internationally recognized definition of genocide which was incorporated into the national criminal legislation of many countries, and was also adopted by the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court, the treaty that established the International Criminal Court (ICC). The Convention (in article 2) defines genocide:
...any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
— Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article II"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide

what's this got to do with anything?

Ukraine's pre-1941 history has been invoked by others, the genocide by famine, so I just made a concise general statement about how genocides have been used by putative representatives of the murdered. Context allows text to be more meaningful, yes?

 

[Dan U]

Paratroopers coming in as well apparently.

 

[butchersapron]

So 5-6 tonight? Going to be brutal.

 

[frogwoman]

Ugh

 

[Idris2002]

...any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

A quick google suggests that Stalin indeed hated the Ukrainians qua Ukrainians and wanted to teach them "a lesson". So his criminal responsibility goes beyond incompetence and indifference into deliberate and malign evil.

But I'd still say that wanting to teach a population "a lesson" is not the same thing as wanting to wipe them out in their entirety.

 

[Dan U]

this is on the Guardian website as well, don't watch if squeamish

Very disturbing footage has emerged purporting to show the security service building in central Ukrainian city of Khmelnytskyi being riddled with machine gun fire during a protest.

The shots came while the main doors to the building were being smashed by protesters.

The footage shows the bleeding body of a woman who was shot in the incident. Protesters are then shown pushing trolley buses in front of the building as a barricade.

The footage [warning: upsetting content] , cannot be independently verified.

as butchersapron says, think it is gonna get very violent later.

 

[butchersapron]

A quick google suggests that Stalin indeed hated the Ukrainians qua Ukrainians and wanted to teach them "a lesson". So his criminal responsibility goes beyond incompetence and indifference into deliberate and malign evil.

But I'd still say that wanting to teach a population "a lesson" is not the same thing as wanting to wipe them out in their entirety.

Don't say qua. Cheers.

 

[TruXta]

Qua qua qua.

 

[Mustn't grumble]

Don't say qua . . .

but YOU did??

As as if.

 

[Idris2002]

Don't say qua. Cheers.

 

[Mustn't grumble]

Qua qua qua

inter alia op. cit. forte sub judice de facto

et cetera et cetera et cetera

- & all WITHOUT being italicised.

 

[butchersapron]

et al

 

[TruXta]

QED

 

[butchersapron]

Anyway, tonight if you came to fight- and you did - then you better fight. I think that's going to be the order of the day.

 

[Mustn't grumble]

et al

The Punctuation Police (Kyiv Branch, currently homeless as our building was torched by bandera-wearing terrorists) issue you with a summons for leaving off the '.' of 'et al.': it's 'et alia'.

Et al. qua et alia.

 

[butchersapron]

tu qouqe

errant"." Somewhere.

Anyway, you're actually with the pedantry police