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Ukraine

I read this touch on the situation in Ukraine in an article about neo-liberalism and economic violence:



-Prof Michael Hudson

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/02/17/an-interview-with-michael-hudson-on-economic-violence/

Is this true, I vaguely remember a judge being assassinated the other day, can anyone comment as to how true this assertion is about US kill-teams running around in the Ukraine? I know they're in there meddling somehow, but actual wet-work? Scary if true, if they are then Russia must know, how will they respond!?:eek:

That would be scary indeed but Counterpunch has some weird stuff on it, I'm not sure how reliable it is.
 
No way America or any other Western power will confront Russia over Ukraine. It's in their sphere of influence. Angry speeches would be all that would happen as Putin's tanks roll in.

I don't think Hudson meant (and I certainly didn't think in terms of) direct overt confrontation. But judges and political leaders being knocked off... that sort of thing is easy to arrange if you're all chummy with a bunch of fascist gun-nuts or whatever and have millions to hand out. If tanks roll in, that's Russias hands full for the next ten to twenty, spending lives and treasure entangling itself with it's own naval instead of pushing influence outward diplomatically and economically onto the world stage...
 
I read this touch on the situation in Ukraine in an article about neo-liberalism and economic violence:



-Prof Michael Hudson

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/02/17/an-interview-with-michael-hudson-on-economic-violence/

Is this true, I vaguely remember a judge being assassinated the other day, can anyone comment as to how true this assertion is about US kill-teams running around in the Ukraine? I know they're in there meddling somehow, but actual wet-work? Scary if true, if they are then Russia must know, how will they respond!?:eek:
Hudson - really? Come on.
 
I don't think Hudson meant (and I certainly didn't think in terms of) direct overt confrontation. But judges and political leaders being knocked off... that sort of thing is easy to arrange if you're all chummy with a bunch of fascist gun-nuts or whatever and have millions to hand out. If tanks roll in, that's Russias hands full for the next ten to twenty, spending lives and treasure entangling itself with it's own naval instead of pushing influence outward diplomatically and economically onto the world stage...
Oh for gods sake, it assumes that judges run things - that the official state structures are how things run - nice and easily - unless they are put under external influence. It's liberal wall street free market bullshit. And Hudson should know, having spent half his life selling it.
 
Oh for gods sake, it assumes that judges run things - that the official state structures are how things run - nice and easily - unless they are put under external influence. It's liberal wall street free market bullshit. And Hudson should know, having spent half his life selling it.

Not necessarily, if there are certain choke-points or symbolic junctions along this whole rocky tale, then there's a lot to be said for engaging with officials because of what they represent or are saying. Not so much "Judge A has the power to decide Action B, so we remove him" but rather "Splatting Judge A shows our time has come, Others will shit themselves" etc.

Nonetheless still interested in your thoughts on Hudson, on another thread even. His opinions seem interesting but I don't know about his past or feel able to strongly criticize his opinions.
 
Not necessarily, if there are certain choke-points or symbolic junctions along this whole rocky tale, then there's a lot to be said for engaging with officials because of what they represent or are saying. Not so much "Judge A had the power to decide Action B" but rather "Splatting Judge A shows our time has come, Others will shit themselves" etc.

Nonetheless still interested in your thoughts on Hudson, on another thread even. His opinions seem interesting but I don't know about his past or feel able to strongly criticize his opinions.
Look - you're basically quoting michael meacher. A very rich man who thinks he has a conscience/analysis, but who in fact has a institutional in. Forget Hudson. And forget these super-power manouveres - this is not a space-opera. Look a bit more from below.

(Ok, don't forget them but use them as context rather then simply determining things)
 
http://www.theguardian.com/world/bl...r-police-storm-kiev-protest-camp-live-updates

European Union foreign ministers are to hold an emergency meeting on Ukraine in Brussels.

The ministers are expected to discuss imposing sanctions on people responsible for violence and the use of excessive force during the protests.

The meeting is due to take place this afternoon and will be chaired by the EU’s foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton.

The way things are being played if sanctions are imposed on anyone I suspect it will be government figures and not protest leaders
 
The way things are being played if sanctions are imposed on anyone I suspect it will be government figures and not protest leaders

No shit. They've been calling them democratic protesters for a while now..
 
Really important that a lot of us don't fall into the state and Russian state groupies trap of now relegating all social anger as fascist motivated. Lat night i made the mistake of comparing the fascists planned offensive with the march on Rome. I was wrong. It's more like the 34 crisis in France.
yep.
 
So if the opposition win what are the implications for European fascism? Obviously Svoboda are going stay on the streets and not in power as Nuland indicated but that seems pretty worrying in itself, with a government friendly and in debt to them could Ukraine be used as a power base to promote fascism and fascist movements in other countries? Far-right Ukrainian paramilitaries have already fought in Chechnya and Georgia.
 
my guess is, there will be at least a few people out on the streets who aren't fash, protesting for unrelated reasons, because they don't like the government or whatever.

with all those flags,swastikas and UNA-UNSO etc symbols though? i doubt they are the majority
 
Which peaceful protestors would they be, William?
These ones:

00-syrian-islamist-insurgent-terrorists.jpg
 
this fascist will disappear after putin is gone..if there's something middle class in eastern europe fears it's being seen as backward by westeuropean middle class ..i'm easteuropean, i should know..this things take time..one step at the time
 
On Bandera, the OUN-B and that flag...

Actually I think that flag was the flag of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA), the Ukranian partisans who towards the end of WW2 fought both the Germans and the Soviets, under he leadership of the OUN-B, but as a wider anti occupation army than just the OUN-B.

From what I've been reading, it'd seem that there are effectively 2-3 different parts of the UPA,

1 - the original OUN-B fascist Nazi collaborators who originally fought with the Nazis to liberate the Ukraine from Polish and Russian occupation, then collaborated with for the first couple of years of Nazi occupation, including participation in the holocaust, and massacres and ethnic cleansing of Poles, Jews and Russians...

2 - The partisans of the UPA who joined to fight against Nazi & Soviet occupation, and continued with the ethnic cleansing, as well as attacking Ukrainians who opposed them.

3 - The anti-occupation UPA who fought the Soviet occupation for 5 years after the supposed end of WW2, with around 100,000 fighters claimed to have been killed by the Soviet army, and a lot more sent off to work camps in Siberia. I get the impression that this force became a much wider ranging anti-occupation force than the previous largely fascist organisation from the war, and will certainly be the part of the organisation that has the most wide ranging links as millions of Ukrainians now must have parents / grandparents / relatives who fought and died with the UPA in this period.

I suspect that many / most in these protests are identifying mostly with the much broader anti-soviet occupation era version of the UPA when using those flags and showing the image of Bandera than they are identifying specifically with the original fascist starting point for it, and the war crimes that it committed.

The level of Soviet repression and killing while putting down this insurgency will also explain a lot of the deep hatred of Russia, particularly in the West of Ukraine, and why they're not going to accept a move away from Europe towards Russia.

Not that there won't also be a fair amount of genuine fascists there, but I think this history of the organisation probably helps to explain some of the historic reasoning for why none fascists might be prapared to share the baracades with fascists under the banner of the UPA when fighting against the pro-Russian factions in the country.

To give an idea of the level of support for this in the West of the Ukraine, here are 2009 poll figures for opinions of Bandera


The picture is very different in Central and particularly East Ukraine.

So my conclusion fwiw would be that the widespread presence of this flag, alongside the Ukrainian flag isn't necessarily that indicative of the level of outright fascists within the protest, and it's certainly helped me to get my head around why such large numbers of protestors who aren't fascists themselves are prepared to fight alongside fascists under these 2 flags.

Some background reading for anyone interested.
http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2010/feb/24/a-fascist-hero-in-democratic-kiev/
http://hnn.us/article/122778
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera

This broadly correlates with my understanding of the situation, having friends in Ukraine, and in Kyiv. It's also important to remember that when Urkainians think of the villainous oppressors, they think of Russia, not the Nazi invasion. Amazingly the Nazi's were less brutal to the Ukrainian population than the Soviets were.
 
It's not as simple as that, necessarily - in Pridnestrovie/Transnistria (the moldovan border with ukraine, that's really it's own country with its own currency and unrecognised government, heavily propped up by russia) the Nazis rounded up and killed Ukrainians as well as Russians and Jews - 15-30% of the population was killed as it was turned into a giant death camp. And in other parts of Ukraine the majority of the population is russian speaking, even if they're not "ethnically" Russian.

So many political issues get racialised over there - it's crazy :(
 
Let's imagine for a second that most of the protesters are not fash, and that they are just allowing the fash to do the dirty work. Like I said earlier in the thread, what makes them think they can put the genie back in the bottle? If the Ukrainian state falls due to the violence of the far-right, then a bunch of peaceful protesters have no chance against them. I can't see the Right Sector just saying "oh go on then, it's all yours now".
 
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