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also remembering that ethnic minorities in these places often speak russian rather than the "native" language

in moldova jews and gagauz (an ethnic group that live in a part of moldova called gagauzia and speak a dialect of turkish) are mostly russian speaking often knowing it better than the native language, for historical reasons, gagauz write their native language in cyrillic as well
 
Fuchs66 said:
While deporting a significant percentage of the indigenous population, many of whom never returned, dying as they did in their thousands in the Gulag. How would you term that neat exchange of populations?

I'd say during the Soviet era occupying force was a very mild way of putting it.
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It would be good if this discussion could avoid suggestions of inter-generational collective guilt.

It's this idea which is repeatedly exploited in Latvia, in Ukraine and in so many other places to contribute to dividing populations and effectively distracting them from their class interests
 
thriller said:
interesting to see how Putin plays this? Does he retaliate by assisting Iran by supplying it with weapons to piss off the west? (though would Iran want to play ball at a time when it is negotiating with the West?) Does the West now say sod Putin and step up the fight against Assad in Syria by providing more visible arms to the opposition?

Typical of me to ask the searching questions. :)
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Yes. Asking a question about something Russia (and China) have been doing with Iran for a couple of decades really is a searching question, isn't it?
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Yes, alongside a great number of Russians. Stalin's reign of terror extended across the Soviet Union. There is no denying the historical baggage, but that does not have to mean that you deal with it by marginalising the Russian-speakers and somehow tainting them as agents of Stalin.
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But they are not being marginalised apart from by themselves.
 
andysays said:
It would be good if this discussion could avoid suggestions of inter-generational collective guilt.

It's this idea which is repeatedly exploited in Latvia, in Ukraine and in so many other places to contribute to dividing populations and effectively distracting them from their class interests
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So ignore the elephant in the room? This is precisely what is being exploited by the Russians at the moment, so to ignore it is to ignore a main driving force behind this situation.
 
kebabking said:
in entirely unrelated news...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26627236

Trans-Dniester has (apparently..) asked Russia if it can join its gang. the geography is worth noting :thumbs:
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please g-d no.

actually, i think transnistria does have some claim to being an independent state, (as far as any state has legitimacy), it was originally part of Ukraine, never historically a part of moldova or romania for that matter except in soviet times (and Nazi occupation)
 
Fuchs66 said:
But they are not being marginalised apart from by themselves.
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They are. Hence the referendum vote, the requirement to teach at least 60 % of classes in Latvian at all schools - btw, you characaterised this requirement as an 'element of the national curriculum'. Do you stand by that characterisation?
 
Fuchs66 said:
So ignore the elephant in the room? This is precisely what is being exploited by the Russians at the moment, so to ignore it is to ignore a main driving force behind this situation.
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i suppose that depends on what exactly you mean by the elephant in the room and why you equate avoiding collective historical guilt with ignoring it. maybe you'd like to clarify
 
frogwoman said:
please g-d no.

actually, i think transnistria does have some claim to being an independent state, (as far as any state has legitimacy), it was originally part of Ukraine, never historically a part of moldova or romania for that matter except in soviet times (and Nazi occupation)
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oh i know - its the timing thats so, err.. interesting. the visit of the Moldovan DFM to NATO HQ yesterday may, it seems, have had more on the agenda than picking up crates of excellent beer and pleasant walks in the Belgian sunshine.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
They are. Hence the referendum vote, the requirement to teach at least 60 % of classes in Latvian at all schools - btw, you characaterised this requirement as an 'element of the national curriculum'. Do you stand by that characterisation?
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It would be reasonably sensible to teach the national language in all (state funded, you forgot that bit) schools that teach the children of that country wouldn't you agree? And 60% still leaves 40% that could be taught in another language, including Russian so again not allowing the Russian language to die out.
 
camouflage said:
Christ.

The British Army at the start of WW1 had not faced a modern industrialised European military force in a long time. Turns out the German Heer were a bit better equiped and trained than the Zulus for instance, had better machine guns than the Fuzzywuzzies, heavier artillery than the Afgans etc.
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The Heer had better strategic doctrine, several Ottoman crucibles where they had sent "military advisors" and been able to "field-test" new weapons and tactics, and were the beneficiaries of German paranoia about "the eastern threat", hence the swollen holdings of the artillery brigades, and the size of both the standing army and the reserve.
Add to that the unfortunate fact that British infantry doctrine had mostly been static for a century, then the fact that the British army hadn't faced a modern force is irrelevant - British military doctrine would still have caused the same problems and the same early reversals.
 
andysays said:
i suppose that depends on what exactly you mean by the elephant in the room and why you equate avoiding collective historical guilt with ignoring it. maybe you'd like to clarify
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I mean precisely what I said, if you ignore one of the main driving forces behind Russian actions then you are restricting your view of this significantly.
 
Fuchs66 said:
It would be reasonably sensible to teach the national language in all (state funded, you forgot that bit) schools that teach the children of that country wouldn't you agree? And 60% still leaves 40% that could be taught in another language, including Russian so again not allowing the Russian language to die out.
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They relaxed it from the original 100 per cent. How inclusive of them.

It's not teaching the national language. It is teaching in the national language. There's a difference. And the fact that Latvian is the only national language is the whole problem.

And rich Russians can send their kids private. Well that's ok then.
 
Fuchs66 said:
I mean precisely what I said, if you ignore one of the main driving forces behind Russian actions then you are restricting your view of this significantly.
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Hmm, you seem to be equating the historical actions of the Soviet state with the current position of individual Russian speaking residents of Latvia.

This is exactly the sort of assumption of collective guilt for the sins of notional ancestors that help to keep ethnic tensions going the world over.
 
Yes teaching in the national language, what's the percentage (seeing as you brought up the comparison) of lessons taught in the Welsh language, in Welsh schools, as opposed to English?

I still see no problem with this.
 
Fuchs66 said:
Yes teaching in the national language, what's the percentage (seeing as you brought up the comparison) of lessons taught in the Welsh language, in Welsh schools, as opposed to English?

I still see no problem with this.
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Er... All of them if they are Welsh-language schools. And there is certainly no legal requirement to teach x per cent in English.
 
andysays said:
Hmm, you seem to be equating the historical actions of the Soviet state with the current position of individual Russian speaking residents of Latvia.

This is exactly the sort of assumption of collective guilt for the sins of notional ancestors that help to keep ethnic tensions going the world over.
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Not really but the actions of the Soviet Union have led to the situation of today and the effects are still felt so to ignore them again is just closing one eye and ignoring a major factor.

The position of the individual ethnic Russian Latvians is to a large extent down to them, they can accept Latvian citizenship with everything that comes with that, or maybe take up the "repatriation" offer from Russia or work on an alternative, workable solution.
 
Actually transnistria/pridnestrovie get loads of money from russia anyway.

I once met a transnistrian in a bar who had a moldovan passport, his brother had a ukrainian passport and his mum had a russian passport. He had been injured in the conflict, he had been playing with his friend when they were kids, and they'd found a landmine, his friend had been killed :(
 
Fuchs66 said:
All schools in Wales are teaching only in the Welsh language?
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Welsh-language schools teach in Welsh.

There is no such thing as a Russian-language state school in Latvia. All schools must teach the majority of their classes in Latvian.

(and let's ignore private schools, eh? The majority cannot afford them even if they wanted to.)
 
The problem is russia is far from a nice and reasonable neighbour.
Latvia and the other neigbhours are in the same postion as ireland was in the 20s indepedant but with a heavily armed pissed off neighbour who can stomp them anytime they like:mad:
 
likesfish said:
The problem is russia is far from a nice and reasonable neighbour.
Latvia and the other neigbhours are in the same postion as ireland was in the 20s indepedant but with a heavily armed pissed off neighbour who can stomp them anytime they like:mad:
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No they are not. Not if, like Latvia, they are EU and NATO members.
 
Fuchs66 said:
Not really but the actions of the Soviet Union have led to the situation of today and the effects are still felt so to ignore them again is just closing one eye and ignoring a major factor.

The position of the individual ethnic Russian Latvians is to a large extent down to them, they can accept Latvian citizenship with everything that comes with that, or maybe take up the "repatriation" offer from Russia or work on an alternative, workable solution.
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To use the example of the Welsh language, this would be like imagining that Wales became independent from the UK, then deciding that Welsh was to be the only national language, and defending that decision on the basis of the actions of Edward 1.

And any English speakers can be "repatriated" to England...
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Welsh-language schools teach in Welsh.

There is no such thing as a Russian-language state school in Latvia. All schools must teach the majority of their classes in Latvian.
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Because that is the national language of Latvia, however there is no ban on the Russian language, if the ethnic Russians want to keep their culture and language alive they are free to do so.

Can you please tell me of these rights that have been denied them?

They have full rights to citizenship, they have the right to vote (even those holding those weird non-Latvian alien passports that were brought in specifically to deal with this), if they turn down the right to be passport holders how is this in anyway, someone else's fault?
 
Fuchs66 said:
How many Welsh language schools are there that teach 100% of lessons in the Welsh language?
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Quite a few. Welsh is the medium of instruction in the same way as, presumably, English was the medium of instruction at your school.

You appear to be struggling to grasp the concept. I guess the English classes are not in Welsh... Nor the French ones.
 
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