Ukip - why are they gaining support?

[butchersapron]

?

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

What widespread discontent are you referring to? And who are the 'they' attempting the siphoning as you see it?

The discontent is with political life in general, the establishment. Caused by a range of things - the economic crisis, scandals (including the child abuse stuff, resentment (encouraged) of migrants and the poor, much of the political construct being pretty shite anyway.

"they" being the esatblishment media. Yes, I know it's ironic. That's the nature of the biggest hoax in UK politics : an establishment endorsed, largly pro establihsment party for anti-establishment sentiment to be chanelled into.

 

[benedict]

United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland

 

[butchersapron]

The discontent is with political life in general, the establishment. Caused by a range of things - the economic crisis, scandals (including the child abuse stuff, resentment (encouraged) of migrants and the poor, much of the political construct being pretty shite anyway.

"they" being the esatblishment media. Yes, I know it's ironic. That's the nature of the biggest hoax in UK politics : an establishment endorsed, largly pro establihsment party for anti-establishment sentiment to be chanelled into.

Seriously, you think the establishment media (who are they? How have they done this? Are they one homogenous block with the same interests? What are those interests?) decided years ago, well before the crash (see past polling heights and electoral performances) to set up a right wing party in order to dampen down anger at right wing parties?

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Seriously, you think the establishment media (who are they? How have they done this? Are they one homogenous block with the same interests? What are those interests?) decided years ago, well before the crash (see past polling heights and electoral performances) to set up a right wing party in order to dampen down anger at right wing parties?

No I don't think they're homogenous, but there is a broad bunch of interests round neoliberalism and standard "divide/rule" "bread/circus" distraction which the party in question more or less serves. Certainly they are a lot safer an option to point many disaffected people towards than any kind of genuine social democratic or more radical agenda. I'm not suggesting nearly as elaborate a conspiracy as you suggest, and didn't go near doing so. It's more a case of right time/place opportunism.

 

[J Ed]

I see that in Sheffield there is a planned anti-UKIP protest outside a UKIP meeting because of a Farage visit. Seems tactically unsound to me, I'm not sure that protests like this and treating UKIP like it's the BNP is the best way to deal with the group. I could quite easily see people seeing the protest against UKIP mostly (exclusively?) by overly dramatic uni students and deciding that they have something going for them...

 

[weepiper]

European election posters.

 

[treelover]

I see that in Sheffield there is a planned anti-UKIP protest outside a UKIP meeting because of a Farage visit. Seems tactically unsound to me, I'm not sure that protests like this and treating UKIP like it's the BNP is the best way to deal with the group. I could quite easily see people seeing the protest against UKIP mostly (exclusively?) by overly dramatic uni students and deciding that they have something going for them...

yes, like it or not they are a legitimate party, there may and will be times to protest against UKIP, not sure this is the right time.

 

[brogdale]

yes, like it or not they are a legitimate party, there may and will be times to protest against UKIP, not sure this is the right time.

Unusual for tories to protest like this?

 

[Anudder Oik]

European election posters.

I think the reason why UKIP are gaining support is one issue and one issue only, because there is a real and widespread sensation that there are now too many immigrants/migrants coming into the country and that the "change" this brings about in the "identity" of areas is something that makes people feel uncomfortable. UKIP are milking this for electoral gain and it is, I think, their main vote winner. Look at the poster above. It's entering dodgy terrain but will hit a nerve with a large swathe of people. mainly working class.

I questioned some UKIP people on a street stand recently and they seemed like tories to me. they were trying to focus on "local issues". Their main claim however was that the problem was EU migrants who can claim housing benefit within 3 weeks of arrival in the country and that this was why so many were coming here.

Is there truth in that?

I have lived abroad for more than 20 years myself, so when I come back I notice the change immediately as I am not accustomed to it.
London is literally full of migrants. Every few steps in the high street I heard different languages.

For people who have to compete with them for work I imagine it could be a problem.

 

[butchersapron]

UKIP now challenging for a Scottish MEP - they're on 10% the tories on 11% - whoever wins that battle gets the seat.

 

[treelover]

Nigel Farage targets Labour heartland as poll shows Ukip support undamaged
Ukip leader to deliver strong anti-immigration message pitched at working-class voters, after brushing off expenses allegations

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/apr/21/nigel-farage-ukip

Not really new, but big UKIP push for the working class vote, he is making a big show of coming to Sheffield,

 

[treelover]

An opinion poll published on Sunday night showed that Ukip supporters do not approve of inequalities of wealth, suggesting some of Farage's current support could be eroded over the controversy.
The poll, conducted this month by ICM for the High Pay Commission, found that 80% of people thinking of voting for Ukip believe the gap in wealth between the rich and poor is important, and 46% very important – the same proportions as for the electorate as a whole.
Potential Ukip supporters thought inequality between rich and poor was more important than building homes, cutting welfare benefits and cutting taxes.
The poll showed 96% of Ukip supporters thought reducing immigration was important and 85% very important – more than the national average of 77% and 50% respectively. It found that 95% of potential Ukip supporters thought changing the UK relationship with the EU was important and 76% very important, compared with 68% and 37% of the general electorate.

According to this, UKIP voters do believe in redistribution, but its still immigration and the EU that is their main concern.

We can be absolutely certain its leadership don't believe in redistribution though.

Among Ukip supporters, 87% say UK pay gaps are unfair and often do not reflect how hard people work; 85% say current pay gaps make it harder for people on low pay to get by on what they earn; and 84% believe UK businesses are often run to make a fast profit, not benefitting workers or communities in the long term.

The thing is, leaving the EU would almost certainly see pay gaps, etc increase and other EU enshrined workers rights abolished.

​

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think the reason why UKIP are gaining support is one issue and one issue only, because there is a real and widespread sensation that there are now too many immigrants/migrants coming into the country and that the "change" this brings about in the "identity" of areas is something that makes people feel uncomfortable. UKIP are milking this for electoral gain and it is, I think, their main vote winner. Look at the poster above. It's entering dodgy terrain but will hit a nerve with a large swathe of people. mainly working class.

I questioned some UKIP people on a street stand recently and they seemed like tories to me. they were trying to focus on "local issues". Their main claim however was that the problem was EU migrants who can claim housing benefit within 3 weeks of arrival in the country and that this was why so many were coming here.

Is there truth in that?

We have receiprocal agreements with 6 (last time I checked, it may have gone up in the last couple of years) EU states, whereby we can claim the full range of benefits in their countries, and they can do the same in ours. Financially, it pretty much balances out/isn't a net expense.
What Farage's people are trying to do is claim that people from the other 20+ EU states can do the same - they can't. They're subject to the usual 6 month wait before they have even limited recourse to "public funds".

I have lived abroad for more than 20 years myself, so when I come back I notice the change immediately as I am not accustomed to it.
London is literally full of migrants. Every few steps in the high street I heard different languages.

For me, in my half a century of life, London has always been like that. It's one of the reasons I love the city so much. It doesn't alienate me. On the contrary, it makes me wonder why some people find it so hard to rub along with others.
I've come to the conclusion that many people who whine about immigrants would find other scapegoats for their discontent if there were no immigrants. Such people need someone/a group to blame, to cover for their own misanthropy and their own failings.

For people who have to compete with them for work I imagine it could be a problem.

That might be true if the "immigrant effect" of downward pressure on wages was a static force, but it isn't. Economically, a kind of EU-wide equilibrium of prices and costs is creeping up on the member-states. My relatives in Bulgaria reckon that wages there have gone up by about 20% since accession, so while it's happening slowly, it is happening.
Once it has happened, though, who will there be to blame? I'm sure of one thing: That a new scapegoat will be found.

 

[treelover]

We have receiprocal agreements with 6 (last time I checked, it may have gone up in the last couple of years) EU states, whereby we can claim the full range of benefits in their countries, and they can do the same in ours. Financially, it pretty much balances out/isn't a net expense.

Do you mean claim the equivalent of our levels of benefit or that of the host country?

btw, plenty of countries are trying to withdraw that right, Germany wants to expel those who are not working.

 

[Quartz]

The thing is, leaving the EU would almost certainly see pay gaps, etc increase and other EU enshrined workers rights abolished.

Can you back that up?

Anyway, the whole Daily Mail benefits issue would be obviated if they could be charged back to the claimant's country.

 

[William of Walworth]

UKIP now challenging for a Scottish MEP - they're on 10% the tories on 11% - whoever wins that battle gets the seat.

Apparantly coming to Swansea very soon as well (this coming week I think). Tour of the traditionally Labour areas, looks like.

 

[J Ed]

Some very emotive UKIP election posters http://imgur.com/a/NR4bu

Some real attempts to play on class grievances

 

[brogdale]

Some very emotive UKIP election posters http://imgur.com/a/NR4bu

Some real attempts to play on class grievances

Much recycled.

 

[Awesome Wells]

Subtle.

 

[J Ed]

 

[ViolentPanda]

Do you mean claim the equivalent of our levels of benefit or that of the host country?

Equivalent of the minimum level of the host country, IIRC.

btw, plenty of countries are trying to withdraw that right, Germany wants to expel those who are not working.

Schaubel has touted the idea, but it hasn't been legislated.

 

[treelover]

Tim Aker @Tim_Aker Follow
Attacks on #UKIP posters are childish name calling. Other parties abandoned the working class and have nothing to offer British workers

UKIP, head of policy, definitely targeting wc/labour voters.

 

[krtek a houby]

Beware of flag wavers and Farrage followers. They seem to be on the increase.

 

[butchersapron]

Beware of flag wavers and Farrage followers. They seem to be on the increase.

Can we take it that you'll be doing your bit too stop them and voting for the Tories or the labour "British jobs for British workers" party?

 

[brogdale]

UKIP, head of policy, definitely targeting wc/labour voters.

..but not "wc/" (former) tory voters?

 

[krtek a houby]

Can we take it that you'll be doing your bit too stop them and voting for the Tories or the labour "British jobs for British workers" party?

Not that it's any of your business but I've made it quite clear who I vote for over the years. But you carry on and make stuff up, if you like.

 

[butchersapron]

Not that it's any of your business but I've made it quite clear who I vote for over the years. But you carry on and make stuff up, if you like.

I have no idea who you have previously voted for. And of course it's my business who you vote for - it's everyone's. Especially if your vote against UKIP is only going to shore up those who are doing/have done the actual damaging things that UKIP can only dream of.

 

[treelover]

..but not "wc/" (former) tory voters?

Yes of course, but many of them went with Blair for some elections

 

[treelover]

I stand by my view that this Ukip campaign is a racist, xenophobic campaign designed to win votes by whipping up animosity against foreigners living and working and contributing to this country ...
We do need much stronger action against bad employers to stop immigrants being abused and exploited by stronger enforcement of the minimum wage, tougher measures by councils against "beds in sheds" and prosecution of "cash in hand" employers. But it is dangerous fallacious nonsense to say that British workers are facing a threat from 26 million unemployed Europeans. The real threat to British workers' jobs and British society comes from the incompetent coalition government carrying out policies to cut taxes for wealthy millionaires while millions suffer a cost of living crisis; creating a house price bubble while failing to invest in housing, infrastructure and skills, and privatising our National Health Service ...

Mike Gapes LP MP on UKIP, note no mention of benefit cuts, etc