Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[MochaSoul]

Yes, true that does exist. Bad example. Caballo for horse would be a better one.

Female horse in Spanish is yegua - la yegua or una yegua

 

[Miranda Yardley]

The trans debate in Hungary is all about whether people have feminine or masculine essences or not.

It is here too, in the sense it centres on 'gender identity' which is held to be innate.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Female horse in Spanish is yegua - la yegua or una yegua

Yes, equivalent to 'mare' in English. But you would commonly talk of a female horse as a caballo as well.

 

[8ball]

It is here too, in the sense it centres on 'gender identity' which is held to be innate.

So there's an innate thing that no one seems to have an agreed definition for, and we're arguing over what kind of thing without a definition it actually is.

More parallels with religion...

 

[Wilf]

I think you misunderstand me, this is not about me and my 'chums'. It's a statement of opinion that that transgender rights are men's rights. The interpretation of 'men's rights' as a value system is of course open to interpretation, as the other poster showed they suggested men's rights are misogynistic, a strangely intolerant position.

What is a 'transgender woman'? At what point does someone come to be able to claim that label and on what basis? What moral rights follow and at what point, are they inherited on a simple declaration 'I am transgender' or does there have to be transition? What should be involved in that?

At what point does someone who has been living 'as a man' become this 'transgender woman', and thus rights accrue 'as a woman'? Are women to have this imposed, to share resources and spaces with someone who hitherto has lived 'as a man'? Or do they have any recourse to object?

I think those are entirely proper questions - both philosophically and practically/politically. However, where we differ (or more importantly, where trans activists might differ) is where you go next, how much of a problem these things are seen to be, whether solutions are available. I've seen the odd example of someone saying they identify with a new gender identity and demanding the full rights, access and services that follow from day one. But is this a widespread issue? Is it really disrupting the work of many women's groups? Or to put it another way, does this rather reductive battle, where gender identities are claimed and owned. not make it more likely that problems will occur?

If you take the example we touched on yesterday, opposing sexual violence, you posed the question as one of sexual crimes committed by mtf trans women being wrongly recorded. Using that as an example of the point I'm raising here, is that the key point? Is not opposing sexual violence per se not the starting point, the thing that has political potential? Doesn't sticking on the issue of who is in and who is out harm the chances of successful campaigns against sexual violence. Even within postmodern/intersectional politics there is the idea of 'minimally cohesive coalitions', coming together of people with different agendas and identities, but for common purposes. Doesn't the, for want of a better term, the 'terf v trans' battle preclude even that level of campaigning?

 

[MochaSoul]

Yes, equivalent to 'mare' in English. But you would commonly talk of a female horse as a caballo as well.

You're talking shit. My Spanish is shit too but I know that just like in Portuguese, most animals have feminine and masculine names. Unless you're speaking in very general terms you always use those names. So if I say, "Lions live in prairies" (los leones viven en las praderas), yes, the masculine terms tend to prevail because that's what happens when you're speaking of groups. If I speak of a particular lion then I'll tend to specify the sex of the lion, pronouns, adjectives, possessives will follow suit. Same with dogs, cats, horses and chickens

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

It is here too, in the sense it centres on 'gender identity' which is held to be innate.

Yeah, except in Hungary we don't have a genders linguistically as such and so it isn't confused with sex, because sex is just that. No one uses "gender identity" because it's unnecessary "gender" in this case means the same thing.

So when we're talking about gender, the translation of "gender" in and of itself being "essence/gas", it takes the linguistic confusion out of it.

Reading the Hungárian wiki page and then translating it (as a Hungarian would read it) into English is really interesting because it's ALL about essence and the lack of it.

Infact if you literally translate (as a Hungarian would understand it) Transgenderism (Transzneműseg - its the wiki article title) to English it comes out as something like Trans-essence-ism

 

[Athos]

That's a factually incorrect statement. Please don't misrepresent me.

I disagree. Whether or not you intendd it, that's the subtext of much of what you've said.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

So there's an innate thing that no one seems to have an agreed definition for, and we're arguing over what kind of thing without a definition it actually is.

More parallels with religion...

This is the definition given in the Yogyakarta Principles, note it is circular.

• Gender identity is understood to refer to each person’s deeply felt internal and individual experience of gender, which may or may not correspond with the sex assigned at birth, including the personal sense of the body (which may involve, if freely chosen, modification of bodily appearance or function by medical, surgical or other means) and other expressions of gender, including dress, speech and mannerisms.

http://data.unaids.org/pub/manual/2007/070517_yogyakarta_principles_en.pdf

(Footnote on page 6).

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

So there's an innate thing that no one seems to have an agreed definition for, and we're arguing over what kind of thing without a definition it actually is.

More parallels with religion...

Well yeah, you said my post before was a bit crazy but thinking about it I reckon it's cuz I'm doing my thinking and writing in two different languages.

I don't know if I'm getting the picture across right. Even "essence" isn't the right word because "nemű" is somewhere in between gas/essence/soul. So in between the physical and supernatural.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that scientists used to try to measure the weights of souls, as if it had a real physical presence.

Ah ha! Found it! The 21 grams experiment over 100 years ago.

21 grams experiment - Wikipedia

Anyway, us fuckin bilinguals, innit!

 

[8ball]

“God is a gas… but not a small gas like Calor Gas”

Alan Partridge

 

[Miranda Yardley]

I think those are entirely proper questions - both philosophically and practically/politically. However, where we differ (or more importantly, where trans activists might differ) is where you go next, how much of a problem these things are seen to be, whether solutions are available. I've seen the odd example of someone saying they identify with a new gender identity and demanding the full rights, access and services that follow from day one. But is this a widespread issue? Is it really disrupting the work of many women's groups? Or to put it another way, does this rather reductive battle, where gender identities are claimed and owned. not make it more likely that problems will occur?

The problem is that the starting point is 'trans women are women no debate'. How on earth do we move forward from that point?

If you take the example we touched on yesterday, opposing sexual violence, you posed the question as one of sexual crimes committed by mtf trans women being wrongly recorded. Using that as an example of the point I'm raising here, is that the key point? Is not opposing sexual violence per se not the starting point, the thing that has political potential? Doesn't sticking on the issue of who is in and who is out harm the chances of successful campaigns against sexual violence. Even within postmodern/intersectional politics there is the idea of 'minimally cohesive coalitions', coming together of people with different agendas and identities, but for common purposes. Doesn't the, for want of a better term, the 'terf v trans' battle preclude even that level of campaigning?

To oppose sexual violence, one needs to be able to identify the agent. If the agent is misreported, for example as female when male, we are not identifying where the problem lies. For example, the imprisonment statistics for sexually violent women are often quoted by transactivists claiming 'woman can be violent too'. Yes, they can, sure. But as the figures released by the government last year show, a proportion of the 110-odd women reported for being in prison for sexual violence are 'trans women' with gender recognition certificates.

Note I am not saying 'trans women' are at higher risk of being sexually violent.

 

[bimble]

It sounds like the Hungarian way of talking about this gets right to the point. FabricLiveBaby! is it that if you believe in gendered 'souls' you are a Transzneműse -ist?

 

[8ball]

The problem is that the starting point is 'trans women are women no debate'. How on earth do we move forward from that point?

I think the degree to which the proposition 'trans women are women' is accepted is a matter for women.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

It sounds like the Hungarian way of talking about this gets right to the point. FabricLiveBaby! is it that if you believe in gendered 'souls' you are a Transzneműse -ist?

It's difficult to answer because "nemű" isnt founded in any overt religious belief. Souls have overtly religious connotations and it's own word (lélek). So it would be unfair of me to say it's EXACTLY the same.

But yes, in a roundabout way in Hungarian if you kinda have to believe in gendered "souls/essence" if you are trans, because otherwise there is only sex (which is different). Miranda said the closest equivalent in English is "gender identity" and that is probably true.

However the belief in it doesn't just include transpeople. Plenty of people of all stripes *do* believe that men and women have different essences. It's certainly believed in Hungary (otherwise we wouldn't have a word for it), Abrahamic religions certainly believe it to be true, secular antifeminists also. Infact most people probably do believe on some level that men and women have different (sometimes opposing) essences.

 

[Wilf]

The problem is that the starting point is 'trans women are women no debate'. How on earth do we move forward from that point?



To oppose sexual violence, one needs to be able to identify the agent. If the agent is misreported, for example as female when male, we are not identifying where the problem lies. For example, the imprisonment statistics for sexually violent women are often quoted by transactivists claiming 'woman can be violent too'. Yes, they can, sure. But as the figures released by the government last year show, a proportion of the 110-odd women reported for being in prison for sexual violence are 'trans women' with gender recognition certificates.

Note I am not saying 'trans women' are at higher risk of being sexually violent.

So, unless I'm reading you wrong, you could see no chance of co-operation between women's groups and trans activists (on sexual violence) until trans activists accept your view that trans women are still men? I might be extrapolating, making things explicit that are only hinted at, but can see no other conclusion from what you have said.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

I think the degree to which the proposition 'trans women are women' is accepted is a matter for women.

And right there is the problem, because 'trans women are women no debate' it means that women cannot even discuss this without being accused of 'transphobia'.

"trans women are women" transphobe - Twitter Search

 

[Miranda Yardley]

So, unless I'm reading you wrong, you could see no chance of co-operation between women's groups and trans activists (on sexual violence) until trans activists accept your view that trans women are still men? I might be extrapolating, making things explicit that are only hinted at, but can see no other conclusion from what you have said.

It's more that co-operation is impeded because transactivists insist 'trans women' are women and should be recognised as such. We could suggest compromise, say 'why not report crimes by trans women separately' but the objection will be 'we can only do this if we are saying that trans women are not women' and that 'this will allow people to say trans women are men'.

This (dogmatic) statement is a huge obstacle to progress.

Finding Middle Ground Between Women’s Rights and Transgender Rights

And Ruth Hunt at Stonewall has bought into it, even though it creates for her a conflict of interest.

Ma Vie En Rose: Ruth Hunt’s Rose-Tinted Trans*Goggles and the anti-Woman Politics of Stonewall

 

[8ball]

And right there is the problem, because 'trans women are women no debate' it means that women cannot even discuss this without being accused of 'transphobia'.

"trans women are women" transphobe - Twitter Search

I'm pretty sure I could find a corner of the internet making the opposing case in an equally shrill manner.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

I'm pretty sure I could find a corner of the internet making the opposing case in an equally shrill manner.

You probably could, but it's not relevant to the point I am making.

 

[8ball]

You probably could, but it's not relevant to the point I am making.

It's relevant to whether there is a one-sided dogma preventing discussion.

 

[MochaSoul]

I completely accept that gender is imposed

So we have shit system of categorisation which puts males at the top and socialises everyone accordingly...

and that usually trans people simply switch gender rather than reject it

Do they want to switch gender or sex?

is it fair to label someone cis if their gender performance is easily identifiable with their biological sex

How to "fairly" evaluate cis when everyone, cis and trans alike, lives under the shit system? Furthermore, since no one is a walking stereotype, where are the lines drawn? Where do you, for instance, put an authoritarian male entrepeneur who chooses a dominatrix for a wife? Where do you put an aggressive pink wearing woman who loves kittens, a la Dolores Umbrige?

But there has to be a term, it's impossible to really examine transgenderism without a word that means not transgender.

To be [brutally] honest, I don't care. As long as any newer term doesn't position my experience of under "gender" as somehow "normal" against that of transgender people (which "cis" does. Who benefits from that? Not women like me who have suffered under and have opposed the idea that what's thrown at me and/or expected of me (as a woman) is somehow unavoidable or inescapable. That's the idea behind "gender is innate" and "gender identity is "choosable"". As far as I'm concerned "cis" is doubly harmful. It posits I'm on the "normal" side of something artificially devised that is used to oppress me while claiming, by virtue of of my possessing boobs and a vagina, that my identity is somehow inextricably linked to both the boobs and the vagina. I say, "'da fuck!?!?

 

[Pickman's model]

And right there is the problem, because 'trans women are women no debate' it means that women cannot even discuss this without being accused of 'transphobia'.

"trans women are women" transphobe - Twitter Search

and is this accusation justified?

 

[Pickman's model]

How to "fairly" evaluate cis when everyone, cis and trans alike, lives under the shit system? Furthermore, since no one is a walking stereotype, where are the lines drawn? Where do you, for instance, put an authoritarian male entrepeneur who chooses a dominatrix for a wife? Where do you put an aggressive pink wearing woman who loves kittens, a la Dolores Umbrige?

what does loving kittens, what does wearing pink, have to do with gender?

 

[Miranda Yardley]

It's relevant to whether there is a one-sided dogma preventing discussion.

How can we have any discussion, whatever one's beliefs, if the position is 'trans women are women no debate'?

 

[8ball]

what does loving kittens, what does wearing pink, have to do with gender?

You might want to have a wander round Toys R Us and report back.

 

[8ball]

How can we have any discussion, whatever one's beliefs, if the position is 'trans women are women no debate'?

Whose position?

 

[MochaSoul]

You might want to have a wander round Toys R Us and report back.

Or just read Harry Potter

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Whose position?

It's the transactivist position.

 

[Pickman's model]

You might want to have a wander round Toys R Us and report back.

there's a lot of things i might want to do.