Tommy Robinson, the court case and (guffaw) 'free speech'

[existentialist]

OK. Be honest with me, please. What attitudes do you think I hold that are, in your opinion, unreasonable. Do tell.

I didn't say I thought your attitudes were unreasonable. That's the second time in a row that you've made an incorrect assumption about what I said. All grist to the mill...

 

[MightyTibberton]

...as usual, I need to read more...

 

[mojo pixy]

If people join ukip because of their antics it isn't a failure of free speech, it's because Youtube culture has weaponised ignorance

I just wanted to quote this because I very much liked the phrase I've bolded

Two years ago when this movement was much smaller they would never have had much to do with racists but they were still slandered by the left and the media as being that.

These are your people then? Sure does sound like it.

Now there are groups that clearly are alt-right ethno nationalists such as generation identity that are now being absorbed into the wider movement. This is what I consider to be dangerous because we have seen where ethno-nationalism can lead in the past.

You predict genocide, or...? Be direct, this cryptic nonsense is not for honest debates.

I believe the reason it has been so easy for groups like generation identity to merge into the larger populist movement and fly their flags at populist demonstrations is because the left and the media smeared the larger movement as alt-right so when they warn about groups like generation identity now, those in the wider movement don’t believe them because they have heard the exact same smears levelled against themselves, only this time they are not smears.

So people don't like being called racist so instead of reexamining their views they go off and join up with actual racists? And we should tone it down or more will join? That's fucking stupid. Hang out with racists, get called racist. Don't like it? Forge new alliances ffs.

I suggest you re-read the bolded bit in my first quote ^up there^

Can’t waste much more time here though and it is just a waste of time as most people here either aren’t willing to or aren’t capable of having a debate.

I'm not sure what it is exactly that you want to debate. It sounds like you actually want validation for your own rightward trajectory, and so far all I'm reading is a kind of backhanded defence of the 'new' right. I believe I can state without fear of contradiction that you won't be finding the validation you want here.

Be a bit more forthright, a bit less backhanded and cryptic, and I expect you'll have your debate.

 

[RD2003]

Not sure validation is what they want, but just another opportunity to claim that they have been 'silenced' by 'the left.'

These are the fun times we live in. Never has the left been weaker and yet they are everywhere, running everything. Never has there been so little silence, and never so much 'freedom of speech', with everybody saying exactly what they want and any kind of nonsense being given widespread credence.

 

[Rsf]

Ethno-nationalism here means white. It's one of the tricks these cunts use to say they're not racist.

The BNP are ethno-nationalists, they believe only certain people with a certain ethnic heritage are truly British, in fact I heard Nick Griffin say words to that affect on TV years ago. Nowadays this shit is often re-branded as ‘alt-right’. I have never seen this used as a trick to pretend they’re not racist though, because it so clearly is racist that everyone can see it for exactly what it is. Trying to pretend that ethno-nationalism isn’t racially discriminatory would be like trying to pretend apartheid wasn’t racially discriminatory. I don’t believe that the likes of UKIP or Tommy Robinson are alt-right though. They’re just not as far as I can tell.

 

[butchersapron]

The BNP are ethno-nationalists, they believe only certain people with a certain ethnic heritage are truly British, in fact I heard Nick Griffin say words to that affect on TV years ago. Nowadays this shit is often re-branded as ‘alt-right’. I have never seen this used as a trick to pretend they’re not racist though, because it so clearly is racist that everyone can see it for exactly what it is. Trying to pretend that ethno-nationalism isn’t racially discriminatory would be like trying to pretend apartheid wasn’t racially discriminatory. I don’t believe that the likes of UKIP or Tommy Robinson are alt-right though. They’re just not as far as I can tell.

I didn't say ethno-nationalism wasn't racist. I said the opposite. And i then said that that your attempted differentiation between ethno-nationalism and your nationalism is a specious and transparent rhetorical trick designed to cover up your own particular racism.

 

[Rsf]

“I didn't say ethno-nationalism wasn't racist. I said the opposite.”

I know you didn’t, I agreed with you that it is.


“And i then said that that your attempted differentiation between ethno-nationalism and your nationalism is a specious and transparent rhetorical trick designed to cover up your own particular racism.”

I have to take issue with that. I know who and what I am and I’m not a racist at all. Ethno-nationalism and nationalism are just not the same thing. In Scotland the biggest party the SNP are also nationalists and they’re not racists either. Scottish nationalism is simply not the samething as ethno-nationalists racism.

Accusations of racism being so casually thrown about by far left idiots is one of the reasons the word is slowly losing its effect. If you go around calling people who are not racists racists then these people will know that they’re not. They will know that you are slandering them. And when you warn them not to associate with other groups who are actually racist because they’re racist they are unlikely to believe you. This is what I believe is happening and that the warnings about groups like generation identity are starting to fall on deaf ears.

 

[butchersapron]

“I didn't say ethno-nationalism wasn't racist. I said the opposite.”

I know you didn’t, I agreed with you that it is.


“And i then said that that your attempted differentiation between ethno-nationalism and your nationalism is a specious and transparent rhetorical trick designed to cover up your own particular racism.”

I have to take issue with that. I know who and what I am and I’m not a racist at all. Ethno-nationalism and nationalism are just not the same thing. In Scotland the biggest party the SNP are also nationalists and they’re not racists either. Scottish nationalism is simply not the samething as ethno-nationalists racism.

Accusations of racism being so casually thrown about by far left idiots is one of the reasons the word is slowly losing its effect. If you go around calling people who are not racists racists then these people will know that they’re not. They will know that you are slandering them. And when you warn them not to associate with other groups who are actually racist because they’re racist they are unlikely to believe you. This is what I believe is happening and that the warnings about groups like generation identity are starting to fall on deaf ears.

I agree. It's a crack within which proper racists live and breed - isn't it?

 

[mojo pixy]

Accusations of racism being so casually thrown about by far left idiots is one of the reasons the word is slowly losing its effect. If you go around calling people who are not racists racists then these people will know that they’re not. They will know that you are slandering them. And when you warn them not to associate with other groups who are actually racist because they’re racist they are unlikely to believe you. This is what I believe is happening and that the warnings about groups like generation identity are starting to fall on deaf ears.

What specific belief(s) are Not Racist? Let's cut to the chase, what have you / your mate been called racist for saying, specifically?

 

[Rsf]

So people don't like being called racist so instead of reexamining their views they go off and join up with actual racists? And we should tone it down or more will join?

Yes. As a general rule, if you go around slandering people with disgusting smears that they know are not true then, believe it or not, I think they’re unlikely re-examine their views on the basis of anything you say. The most likely result is that having been on the receiving end of your unwarranted and slanderous abuse they will ignore everything else you have to say on the subject, including any other other warnings you give them that may actually be valid. Would you expect a different outcome?

Guilt by association is another matter entirely.

 

[mojo pixy]

What specific belief(s) are Not Racist? Let's cut to the chase, what have you / your mate been called racist for saying, specifically?

 

[Rsf]

“What specific belief(s) are Not Racist? Let's cut to the chase, what have you / your mate been called racist for saying, specifically?”

I’ve only ever been called a racist here, I believe it was for saying that ethno-nationalism (which I totally condemn) and nationalism are not the samething. Apparently someone seems to think this is just a cover to hide my views because someone else can know what I’m really thinking and what my motivation is. Scottish nationalism is not racism. The SNP are not racist. To be honest this debate isn’t even constructive so I give up for now. I’m just banging my head against a wall and it’s difficult to take accusations of racism seriously from people like that. I believe the left have just discredited themselves with their apparent obsession in finding racism everywhere, I think they’re like the modern day witch finders, they’re gonna find a witch one way or the other even where none exists.

 

[krtek a houby]

Yes. As a general rule, if you go around slandering people with disgusting smears that they know are not true then, believe it or not, I think they’re unlikely re-examine their views on the basis of anything you say. The most likely result is that having been on the receiving end of your unwarranted and slanderous abuse they will ignore everything else you have to say on the subject, including any other other warnings you give them that may actually be valid. Would you expect a different outcome?

Guilt by association is another matter entirely.

Be nicer to "Tommy", "Steve" and the gang & they'll be nicer to us. Is that it?

 

[butchersapron]

Be nicer to "Tommy", "Steve" and the gang & they'll be nicer to us. Is that it?

You're half the problem you plank.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Yes. As a general rule, if you go around slandering people with disgusting smears that they know are not true then, believe it or not, I think they’re unlikely re-examine their views on the basis of anything you say. The most likely result is that having been on the receiving end of your unwarranted and slanderous abuse they will ignore everything else you have to say on the subject, including any other other warnings you give them that may actually be valid.

I agree with that.

 

[butchersapron]

You can fuck off and all.

 

[chilango]

What particular rabbit hole are we merrily being led down here? I can't make it out from the last few pages tbh.

 

[krtek a houby]

“What specific belief(s) are Not Racist? Let's cut to the chase, what have you / your mate been called racist for saying, specifically?”

I’ve only ever been called a racist here, I believe it was for saying that ethno-nationalism (which I totally condemn) and nationalism are not the samething. Apparently someone seems to think this is just a cover to hide my views because someone else can know what I’m really thinking and what my motivation is. Scottish nationalism is not racism. The SNP are not racist. To be honest this debate isn’t even constructive so I give up for now. I’m just banging my head against a wall and it’s difficult to take accusations of racism seriously from people like that. I believe the left have just discredited themselves with their apparent obsession in finding racism everywhere, I think they’re like the modern day witch finders, they’re gonna find a witch one way or the other even where none exists.

Witch hunt?
I found the broom earlier:
this fills me with confidence that the populist and nationalist wave that is sweeping the West is unstoppable.

You're confident that being quizzed by people you reckon are "far left" or Matthew Hopkins or whoever is going to lead to people running to "Tommy"?

 

[Toast Rider]

I just wanted to quote this because I very much liked the phrase I've bolded

Cheers.

It's really the only way to describe this toxic culture that has been created solely through means of social media. People like 'Count Dankula' have no other existence purpose or meaning beyond it. He describes himself as a shitposter - that's politics to these people. He doesn't understand nor care to that throwing around phrases calling for ethnic cleansing have a history meaning and a context.

Because it's lolz innit.

Yet they will cry utter foul if you point out their behaviour is that of a twat. Yet they want to be taken seriously, the continued exhortations for free speech is a realisation they don't have a seat at the table and that's what they want. Like all fascists, physically violent or otherwise, they crave legitimacy. That is one of the reasons I find people like him, and the other swinebags I mentioned, so reprehensible.

To use their, ridiculous patronising and deeply offensive parlance, they trigger me.

 

[Toast Rider]

Yes. As a general rule, if you go around slandering people with disgusting smears that they know are not true then, believe it or not, I think they’re unlikely re-examine their views on the basis of anything you say. The most likely result is that having been on the receiving end of your unwarranted and slanderous abuse they will ignore everything else you have to say on the subject, including any other other warnings you give them that may actually be valid. Would you expect a different outcome?

Guilt by association is another matter entirely.

How about when Carl Benjamin, aka Sargon of Akkad, says "I wouldn't even rape you" to a survivor of sexual assault? Or when he and Stefan Molyneux use racist language to describe and denigrate people of colour. Or when Lauren Southern enables fascists to block legal rescue attempts of drowning migrants? These are all people Dankula is willing to glad hand for a living?

 

[Toast Rider]

“I didn't say ethno-nationalism wasn't racist. I said the opposite.”

I know you didn’t, I agreed with you that it is.


“And i then said that that your attempted differentiation between ethno-nationalism and your nationalism is a specious and transparent rhetorical trick designed to cover up your own particular racism.”

I have to take issue with that. I know who and what I am and I’m not a racist at all. Ethno-nationalism and nationalism are just not the same thing. In Scotland the biggest party the SNP are also nationalists and they’re not racists either. Scottish nationalism is simply not the samething as ethno-nationalists racism.

Accusations of racism being so casually thrown about by far left idiots is one of the reasons the word is slowly losing its effect. If you go around calling people who are not racists racists then these people will know that they’re not. They will know that you are slandering them. And when you warn them not to associate with other groups who are actually racist because they’re racist they are unlikely to believe you. This is what I believe is happening and that the warnings about groups like generation identity are starting to fall on deaf ears.

You're not Millenial Woes, are you?

 

[Ax^]

What particular rabbit hole are we merrily being led down here? I can't make it out from the last few pages tbh.

fuck knows it appears they are trying to say as long as they don't identify as fash its alright to associate with fash and hold views in line with them

but if anyone pulls you on it is slanderous lies

 

[Rsf]

You can fuck off and all.

C’mon. Do you really think that is a reasonable response? I really shouldn’t. But one last time...

There are different forms of nationalism. For example the BNP and the SNP are both nationalist political parties. But they are both very different parties politically with almost nothing in common.

This is because their versions of “nationalism” are very, very different things. One is not some sneaky ploy to hide the fact that it is actually the same as the other. I therefore think you are just factually wrong if you really believe all nationalism is just ethno-nationalism dressed up.

And it is very easy to tell which is which by looking at the policies that are derived from it. Hence why the nationalistic SNP welcome immigrants and are totally oppressed to all forms of racial discrimination. And why despite not always agreeing with them I consider the SNP to be a fundamentally decent party but consider the BNP harmful and dangerous.

 

[butchersapron]

C’mon. Do you really think that is a reasonable response? I really shouldn’t. But one last time...

There are different forms of nationalism. For example the BNP and the SNP are both nationalist political parties. But they are both very different parties politically with almost nothing in common.

This is because their versions of “nationalism” are very, very different things. One is not some sneaky ploy to hide the fact that it is actually the same as the other. I therefore think you are just factually wrong if you really believe all nationalism is just ethno-nationalism dressed up.

And it is very easy to tell which is which by looking at the policies that are derived from it. Hence why the nationalistic SNP welcome immigrants and are totally oppressed to all forms of racial discrimination. And why despite not always agreeing with them I consider the SNP to be a fundamentally decent party but consider the BNP harmful and dangerous.

I believe that yours is - not all. I oppose all of them and seek to identify them correctly. Yours is rank, and i think your difference is as fake as your wider i'm just telling it like it is facade.

 

[RD2003]

C’mon. Do you really think that is a reasonable response? I really shouldn’t. But one last time...

There are different forms of nationalism. For example the BNP and the SNP are both nationalist political parties. But they are both very different parties politically with almost nothing in common.

This is because their versions of “nationalism” are very, very different things. One is not some sneaky ploy to hide the fact that it is actually the same as the other. I therefore think you are just factually wrong if you really believe all nationalism is just ethno-nationalism dressed up.

And it is very easy to tell which is which by looking at the policies that are derived from it. Hence why the nationalistic SNP welcome immigrants and are totally oppressed to all forms of racial discrimination. And why despite not always agreeing with them I consider the SNP to be a fundamentally decent party but consider the BNP harmful and dangerous.

You keep mentioning Scottish nationalism with apparent approval. I know little about the history of Scottish nationalism, but I don't think they started off by extolling the virtues of a 'Tommy,' or a 'Steve.'

 

[krtek a houby]

C’mon. Do you really think that is a reasonable response? I really shouldn’t. But one last time...

There are different forms of nationalism. For example the BNP and the SNP are both nationalist political parties. But they are both very different parties politically with almost nothing in common.

This is because their versions of “nationalism” are very, very different things. One is not some sneaky ploy to hide the fact that it is actually the same as the other. I therefore think you are just factually wrong if you really believe all nationalism is just ethno-nationalism dressed up.

And it is very easy to tell which is which by looking at the policies that are derived from it. Hence why the nationalistic SNP welcome immigrants and are totally oppressed to all forms of racial discrimination. And why despite not always agreeing with them I consider the SNP to be a fundamentally decent party but consider the BNP harmful and dangerous.

You don't find TR's BNP background or his EDL and certain UKIP supporters harmful or dangerous? When he called adult male Muslims who'd come into the EU in the last few years "fake refugees"?

Or when Gerard Batten at the recent rally called Mohammed a paedophile? Or previously, Islam a death cult?

Sounds very much like the language of the harmful and dangerous to me.

 

[The39thStep]

Actually

You're not Millenial Woes, are you?

Laurie Penny fan club

 

[Jeremiah18.17]

The SNP is a Scottish nationalist - civic nationalist - party, not a movement. In terms of the movement, there are absolutely racist, fascist and crypto fascist elements in Scottish nationalism, not least these guys: Siol nan Gaidheal - Wikipedia
I would suggest that it is the equivalent of these guys in England that our new poster is aligning himself with when he defends the TR lot.
Not all UKIP are or were racist individuals, but they are members of an institutionally racist org led by people who are at the very least fellow travellers to fascism. And UKIP are the “left wing” of the TR movement......
I get tired of all this “nobody listens to us” schtick from the right/far right. People do listen, they just don’t agree with you - quite often from a more informed viewpoint.

 

[butchersapron]

The SNP is a Scottish nationalist - civic nationalist - party, not a movement. In terms of the movement, there are absolutely racist, fascist and crypto fascist elements in Scottish nationalism, not least these guys: Siol nan Gaidheal - Wikipedia
I would suggest that it is the equivalent of these guys in England that our new poster is aligning himself with when he defends the TR lot.
Not all UKIP are or were racist individuals, but they are members of an institutionally racist org led by people who are at the very least fellow travellers to fascism. And UKIP are the “left wing” of the TR movement......
I get tired of all this “nobody listens to us” schtick from the right/far right. People do listen, they just don’t agree with you - quite often from a more informed viewpoint.

The things that that demand answering can only be replied to by overturning neo-liberalism. So when people say they don't want to be just heard but want answers - ones that involve overthrowing everything the response is to say - you've been heard, the politicians have decided.


You, as revolutionary anarchist, are not excited by this gap?

 

[Jeremiah18.17]

I think this from Dave Graeber sums up much of why we are where we are now in politics in UK, Europe and America:

Resentment.