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Tommy Robinson, the court case and (guffaw) 'free speech'

Rsf said:
Yes. Steve is alleged to have said this. Although I won’t say it the way he did as I try not to speak rudely like that. But he is basically right. But is that all you have got? Dismiss everything in a pavilion type response when you read a trigger name? Are you sure you don’t want even try debating? Your side of the debate rarely do to be honest and this fills me with confidence that the populist and nationalist wave that is sweeping the West is unstoppable. Margaret Thatcher used to say she liked it when her political opponents insulted her because she knew they had nothing left and she’d won we they resorted to that. In the end her own party had to stop her, she never ever lost an election to the left.
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Margaret fucking Thatcher, now
 
Rsf said:
Just decided to respond to this. I’m not recruiting for anything and have no intention of asking anyone here for anything. My ‘agenda’ if you could call it that, I.e, what I would actually like to see happening is I would like to see the UK adopt something like a USA style first amendment guaranteeing freedom of speech in this country. I would like to see the political left and right wings treated in exactly the same way by the authorities as I believe everyone should be equal before the law and believe we should have have a truly non-political police force and an impartial criminal justice system. As the woman about four minutes into the bbc news night report that someone linked to earlier said it’s pretty clear that it is one rule for one group and another rule for others in practice. Despite being on the political left for years I now regard the Labour Party as a pretty despicable, anti working class party and don’t think much more of the tories or Lib Dem’s. I want to make working class people like me aware that labour are filled top to bottom with champagne socialists who despise the working class and think they are thick and that socialism doesn’t work anyway (a poster here already sussed this ‘agenda’ of mine). I want the powers that be to face up to the grooming gang scandals and not just prosecute those who did it but also hold those who allowed it to go on to account because the entire thing sickens me and I’m really really angry about it. I’m a father myself and to think that if something happened to make my family vulnerable that the authorities could allow that to happen to my child makes me so angry I don’t even know how to put it into words. I believe the fact these things are not being done is why Tommy Robinson is now as prominent as he is and why his support is growing. Oh and I’d also like it if the far left could not behave like a bunch of fascist thugs and attempt to shutdown debates and hustings and such like but I doubt there is much chance of that one.

So yeah, thinking about it, Tommy Robinson doesn’t come across as a particularly pleasant chap at times (certainly some of his past isn’t exactly endearing), sure he broke the law and is a criminal if me saying that makes anyone feel any better, but as Steve Bannon was alleged to have said he’s better than all our establishment elites put together to put it a bit more politely.
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Agree with much of that, but not at all with the final paragraph. Tommy Robinson is a racist. He tries to pretend he has ideological problems with Islam but not ‘Muslims’ whatever that means (I had Muslims at my wedding is what he’s said). This is bollocks though, the guy is a racist who probably wants to create a nationist state. And that must be rejected because otherwise it’s a short step to the horrors of concentration camps. I mean jesus look at the States, they’re already taking immigrant children from their parents. And I’m sure Bannon is approving of that. You have to stand up for what is right, and no matter how much TR says about free speech that rings true, you have to draw the line and say not in my name will that happen. So no, he is not better than many in the establishment.
 
MightyTibberton said:
That looks really interesting.
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It's a very good good book with massive problems. I read it on the recc of The39thStep . It's bang on about the way that a swathe of the w/c have been alienated from from politicians (and how they are are right to be) and the wider system (and how this being channelled into self defeating ways). It's got a great piece on the difference between mourning and melancholia - the first being a recognition of a death and then moving on, and the second a refusal to do so. There's hope in that refusal, that the past that never existed can yet be made if the left starts concentrating on economic rather than cultural issues - and the situating of the edl and wider milieu in that second group.

It has many faults - it's adoption of the nairn-anderson thesis of a backward native w/c, one that's only backward due to the feeble nature of the middle class' teacher class - it reels this out whilst naming organic w/c political culture and actions that negate the thesis. It's emphasis on teaching is really disappointing. Its use of a section of the w/c as the w/c as a whole/

After the end of 200+ pages of the most brutal downbeat prose that makes LETTSA look like the cheeriest christmas elf it concludes that 'maybe the pessimists are right' and the authors are wrong...
 
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And thank you, that's interesting, I have at least learned something today - the Nairn-Anderson thesis. I'm not very well read at all on political theory. Sometimes I wonder how useful or important that is, but I am trying to do better.
 
Edie said:
Agree with much of that, but not at all with the final paragraph. Tommy Robinson is a racist. He tries to pretend he has ideological problems with Islam but not ‘Muslims’ whatever that means (I had Muslims at my wedding is what he’s said). This is bollocks though, the guy is a racist who probably wants to create a nationist state. And that must be rejected because otherwise it’s a short step to the horrors of concentration camps. I mean jesus look at the States, they’re already taking immigrant children from their parents. And I’m sure Bannon is approving of that. You have to stand up for what is right, and no matter how much TR says about free speech that rings true, you have to draw the line and say not in my name will that happen. So no, he is not better than many in the establishment.
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I hope you are not right about that; but if you are things are more dangerous than I thought. There is a large nationalist (but not ethnic-nationalist) and populist movement rising across Europe at the moment including in the U.K. Two years ago when this movement was much smaller they would never have had much to do with racists but they were still slandered by the left and the media as being that. Now there are groups that clearly are alt-right ethno nationalists such as generation identity that are now being absorbed into the wider movement. This is what I consider to be dangerous because we have seen where ethno-nationalism can lead in the past. I believe the reason it has been so easy for groups like generation identity to merge into the larger populist movement and fly their flags at populist demonstrations is because the left and the media smeared the larger movement as alt-right so when they warn about groups like generation identity now, those in the wider movement don’t believe them because they have heard the exact same smears levelled against themselves, only this time they are not smears.

Can’t waste much more time here though and it is just a waste of time as most people here either aren’t willing to or aren’t capable of having a debate.
 
Rsf said:
I hope you are not right about that; but if you are things are more dangerous than I thought. There is a large nationalist (but not ethnic-nationalist) and populist movement rising across Europe at the moment including in the U.K. Two years ago when this movement was much smaller they would never have had much to do with racists but they were still slandered by the left and the media as being that. Now there are groups that clearly are alt-right ethno nationalists such as generation identity that are now being absorbed into the wider movement. This is what I consider to be dangerous because we have seen where ethno-nationalism can lead in the past. I believe the reason it has been so easy for groups like generation identity to merge into the larger populist movement and fly their flags at populist demonstrations is because the left and the media smeared the larger movement as alt-right so when they warn about groups like generation identity now, those in the wider movement don’t believe them because they have heard the exact same smears levelled against themselves, only this time they are not smears.

Can’t waste much more time here though and it is just a waste of time as most people here either aren’t willing to or aren’t capable of having a debate.
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Bollocks to that. You said:
this fills me with confidence that the populist and nationalist wave that is sweeping the West is unstoppable a few posts back.
 
Edie said:
Rsf Im not sure I knew there was a difference between nationalism and ethno-nationalism. I thought nationalism by definition was along ethnic lines.
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Depends. Irish nationalism is about determining a 32 country Republic first and Sinn Fein are an inclusive party and absolutely opposed to racism.

But that's an anomaly (imho) to standard nationalism.
 
butchersapron said:
Ethno-nationalism here means white. It's one of the tricks these cunts use to say they're not racist. Because they don't hate everyone. 'Only pakis'.
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Yes and I’ve watched videos where TR says exactly that. He doesn’t have a problem with Judaism, Sikhism etc only Islam because the values are not compatible with Western values. But it’s the thin end of the wedge.
 
Rojava isn't an ethno-nationalist state, it is multi-ethnic. I'm sure that at the moment it's pretty hard in Syria to find anywhere that's a model of fantastic governance for the future.

Democratic Federation of Northern Syria - Wikipedia

Though the point was more to compare Anna Campbell's actual anti-ISIS actions to the FreeTommy crowd's brave posting of "Allah is a paedo" memes and smashing up of central London.
 
MightyTibberton said:
Rojava isn't an ethno-nationalist state, it is multi-ethnic. I'm sure that at the moment it's pretty hard in Syria to find anywhere that's a model of fantastic governance for the future.

Democratic Federation of Northern Syria - Wikipedia

Though the point was more to compare Anna Campbell's actual anti-ISIS actions to the FreeTommy crowd's brave posting of "Allah is a paedo" memes and smashing up of central London.
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Bollocks is it. It's a PKK state with other ethnicitiies in it
 
existentialist said:
Who said anything about paranoia? All I'm saying is that you are being increasingly poor at covering up the attitudes that lie beneath your oh-so-reasonable facade.
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OK. Be honest with me, please. What attitudes do you think I hold that are, in your opinion, unreasonable. Do tell.
 
I'm not an expert on the governance of Rojava, but it seems hopeful, especially considering the circumstances around it: it has co-presidents, one of whom is Kurdish and one Arab, it reportedly had ethnically balanced local councils. I'm sure there is a wish to see Rojava as a utopia, and I'm sure it will end up disappointing people looking for that - perhaps before Assad bombs the shit out of it. And, my original point, that Anna Campbell had actually taken up arms against DAESH from a "left" position (along with quite a few others), while Tommy Robinson spends his time crowd-funding on YouTube stands.
 
MightyTibberton said:
I'm not an expert on the governance of Rojava, but it seems hopeful, especially considering the circumstances around it: it has co-presidents, one of whom is Kurdish and one Arab, it reportedly had ethnically balanced local councils. I'm sure there is a wish to see Rojava as a utopia, and I'm sure it will end up disappointing people looking for that - perhaps before Assad bombs the shit out of it. And, my original point, that Anna Campbell had actually taken up arms against DAESH from a "left" position (along with quite a few others), while Tommy Robinson spends his time crowd-funding on YouTube stands.
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It has formally ethnically balanced councils (itself an PPK imposition) but de facto what PKK says happens happens. Including lining up with assad to invade idlib and death to the remnants of the revolution it seems.

My point is that she didn't and to think she did is to do what the TR style resistance do. She even has a fucking apo badge in the most famous pic of her.

Anyway, plenty threads to do this on in world politics.
 
Rsf said:
OK. Be honest with me, please. What attitudes do you think I hold that are, in your opinion, unreasonable. Do tell.
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It isn't so much your attitudes but, as I said above, the question of where you want to see them ultimately leading. Forget all the stuff like First Amendments and all else that obviously isn't going to happen.

The thing about Yaxley Lennon is that he says he wants 'them' to act on all of what he bangs on about. If he actually believes in it, he must know that 'they' are not going to do anything of the kind. So where is it all going, and led by whom?


ETA Although the very trial he so clumsily disprupted in his quest for martyrdom could be said to be an example of 'them' doing just as he demands.
 
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