Tommy Robinson, the court case and (guffaw) 'free speech'

[bimble]

krtek a houby and RD2003 , out of interest when these people you mention say the stuff about jews being behind all the badness in the world do you try to engage with it or just feel awkward and wait for them to stop ? I've recently come to feel that it shouldn't be up to the people directly affected to counter this stuff every time, sometimes its just to scary to do so, but it would be really good if more often it was challenged by those who don't have to feel scared in the same way.
It could be as simple as saying 'you can think what you like but i don't want to hear it thanks', doesn't have to be an attempt to change their mind just to make it less acceptable to launch into the stuff in public and spread their ideas?

 

[The39thStep]

that barcodes as tattoos for control used to show up in xtian end time armageddony after the rapture ramblings.

I'd hope these days they've updated it to rfid/gps chips implanted at birth, otherwise the theory hasn't moved with the times

The firm behind this was Latienos & Romiith

 

[RD2003]

krtek a houby and RD2003 , out of interest when these people you mention say the stuff about jews being behind all the badness in the world do you try to engage with it or just feel awkward and wait for them to stop ? I've recently come to feel that it shouldn't be up to the people directly affected to counter this stuff every time, sometimes its just to scary to do so, but it would be really good if more often it was challenged by those who don't have to feel scared in the same way.
It could be as simple as saying 'you can think what you like but i don't want to hear it thanks', doesn't have to be an attempt to change their mind just to make it less acceptable to launch into the stuff in public and spread their ideas?

Course I challenged it. In fact I took the piss mercilessly, as did somebody else who was present. The woman I mentioned is a perfectly reasonable person in all other respects. I think she's affected by what she would no doubt hear on a casual basis in her formative years from family and in community she grew up in. She is also a bit conspiracy-minded, and I suspect she watches and reads a certain kind of material online (not Islamist stuff but the kind of thing mentioned by others above.) She did backtrack on some of what she was saying, but I don't know if it would have had any lasting impact. I know one of her brothers slightly, and he is also a decent enough bloke, but I hear from somebody who knows him better that he can be the same as her when it comes to politics. Palestine is the big deal for both of them, but I don't think either has ever lifted a finger on the issue.

 

[mojo pixy]

p...out of interest when these people you mention say the stuff about jews being behind all the badness in the world do you try to engage with it or just feel awkward and wait for them to stop ? I've recently come to feel that it shouldn't be up to the people directly affected to counter this stuff every time, sometimes its just to scary to do so, but it would be really good if more often it was challenged by those who don't have to feel scared in the same way.
It could be as simple as saying 'you can think what you like but i don't want to hear it thanks', doesn't have to be an attempt to change their mind just to make it less acceptable to launch into the stuff in public and spread their ideas?

IMO it's everyone's job to be as scornful as possible and to convey utter contempt along the lines of No, that's fucking stupid. Don't engage with any substance, don't dignify the cunts with rational discourse, just No, that's fucking stupid till they lose their shit and / or fuck off.

tbh either them or me fucking off is the aim because there's no reasoning with them and trying to just encourages them to keep talking.

IMO anyway. Anyone promotiing this shit deserves physical violence so unrelenting, pitiless scorn and contempt is actually doing the fuckers a favour.

 

[killer b]

Lots of people just repeat this stuff unthinkingly - I don't think scorn or violence are the best solution tbh, certainly not in the first instance. That just gets their backs up and makes them less likely to listen to reason in future.

 

[RD2003]

Lots of people just repeat this stuff unthinkingly - I don't think scorn or violence are the best solution tbh, certainly not in the first instance. That just gets their backs up and makes them less likely to listen to reason in future.

As a token gesture I deliberately overshot the toilet bowl for an instant in her immaculate bathroom.

 

[bimble]

Lots of people just repeat this stuff unthinkingly - I don't think scorn or violence are the best solution tbh, certainly not in the first instance. That just gets their backs up and makes them less likely to listen to reason in future.

Agree with you. My previous driving teacher is the last time this really came up for me: I didn't have the courage to speak at the time but sent him a long text afterwards explaining what was wrong with what he'd said and why i was stopping lessons. The reply I got was really encouraging, him saying he'd never really thought about it before, would not be repeating that stuff in future and that he was sorry cos he liked me and never knew jews could be just normal people like me etc. In the end i'm glad i didn't have the 'guts' to respond with maximum drama at the moment it was happening.

 

[krtek a houby]

krtek a houby and RD2003 , out of interest when these people you mention say the stuff about jews being behind all the badness in the world do you try to engage with it or just feel awkward and wait for them to stop ? I've recently come to feel that it shouldn't be up to the people directly affected to counter this stuff every time, sometimes its just to scary to do so, but it would be really good if more often it was challenged by those who don't have to feel scared in the same way.
It could be as simple as saying 'you can think what you like but i don't want to hear it thanks', doesn't have to be an attempt to change their mind just to make it less acceptable to launch into the stuff in public and spread their ideas?

I used to be a lot more confrontational but when you know the person saying it, I try and reason with them. Ask them why they think that way and aren't they being a bit hypocritical. It really depends on the situation and the individual, imho. Another mate is rabidly pro-Israel and pro-IRA and a tory Hindu. Highly intelligent but makes my mind boggle when he goes on about Palestinians being terrorists. I point out to him Irish Republicans and socialism and strong support for Palestine in Ireland which he can't get his head round!

Much easier to have a barney on line with an out and out bigot but irl,some peoples prejudices are so nuanced, you realise there's no absolutes.

My problem with BNP/EDL/TR supporters, the few I'd met, was outright hostility from the get go. I suppose I should follow my own advice and accept that there will be nuances there and some people have genuine concerns. Less so with the BNP/EDL fanboys who I thankfully no longer have to engage with.

Er, rambling a bit, sorry.

 

[krtek a houby]

Agree with you. My previous driving teacher is the last time this really came up for me: I didn't have the courage to speak at the time but sent him a long text afterwards explaining what was wrong with what he'd said and why i was stopping lessons. The reply I got was really encouraging, him saying he'd never really thought about it before, would not be repeating that stuff in future and that he was sorry cos he liked me and never knew jews could be just normal people like me etc. In the end i'm glad i didn't have the 'guts' to respond with maximum drama at the moment it was happening.

Sometimes the shock of the moment can stop you from responding. You think to yourself - wait a moment, did s/he actually say that???

 

[RD2003]

I find it a bit strange that anybody can get to a certain stage in life and still be shocked by anything.

 

[krtek a houby]

I find it a bit strange that anybody can get to a certain stage in life and still be shocked by anything.

Life still has the occasional surprises in store!

 

[Poi E]

Inside every anti-establishment conspiraloon beats the heart of a traditionalist

Worth quoting.

 

[mojo pixy]

Lots of people just repeat this stuff unthinkingly - I don't think scorn or violence are the best solution tbh, certainly not in the first instance. That just gets their backs up and makes them less likely to listen to reason in future.

I used to think this, but time and struggle has worn me down.

In practice I might not be quite so rude but patience, reasoned debate and engagement as if the arguments have equal value is off my list by now. I can discuss rationally but I want rational responses to work with.

There's a world of other stuff to talk about too. Nobody is obliged to engage with conspiranoid shit and as a rule of thumb doing so just encourages them. At the end of the day each of us have limits on humouring other people's delusional ideas and this is one area where my limits are extremely tight.

EtA, even people believing in big-C Conservatism or even fascism get more from me, personally. At least they have some kind of political analysis. It might be shit but it's something to engage with. The Not Even Wrong of conspiraloonery is impossible.

 

[MightyTibberton]

Rabbit holes you say....:



Icke's making a life-story film, and crowd-funding it of course. There's a trailer up. There's a moment that's quite moving, when he talks about the ridicule he received (and iirc his family received) after his Wogan interview. The rest is crap...

He looks and sounds like he drinks a lot.

 

[Dogsauce]

that barcodes as tattoos for control used to show up in xtian end time armageddony after the rapture ramblings.

I'd hope these days they've updated it to rfid/gps chips implanted at birth, otherwise the theory hasn't moved with the times

I have a leaflet somewhere that was handed to me in New York in the early 90s by some mad Korean Christian sect, all about endtime prophecies, some 12-year EU deal and barcodes on people. The thing that really spooks me is that the accompanying illustration shows planes crashing into skyscrapers.

 

[MightyTibberton]

I have a leaflet somewhere that was handed to me in New York in the early 90s by some mad Korean Christian sect, all about endtime prophecies, some 12-year EU deal and barcodes on people. The thing that really spooks me is that the accompanying illustration shows planes crashing into skyscrapers.

Have you seen the "Rothschilds put an illustration of 9/11 on US banknotes that you can only reveal by some sort of bizarre origami with your money in order to taunt proper Americans with what they were going to do" conspiracy theory? It's amazing. And I haven't made it up!

 

[belboid]

Have you seen the "Rothschilds put an illustration of 9/11 on US banknotes that you can only reveal by some sort of bizarre origami with your money in order to taunt proper Americans with what they were going to do" conspiracy theory? It's amazing. And I haven't made it up!

did it three years before the attacks even happened.

What more proof of the illuminati's existence could anyone want?

 

[The39thStep]

Have you seen the "Rothschilds put an illustration of 9/11 on US banknotes that you can only reveal by some sort of bizarre origami with your money in order to taunt proper Americans with what they were going to do" conspiracy theory? It's amazing. And I haven't made it up!

years ago somebody refolded a Marlboro light fag packet to reveal to me the letters KKK

 

[The39thStep]

Agree with you. My previous driving teacher is the last time this really came up for me: I didn't have the courage to speak at the time but sent him a long text afterwards explaining what was wrong with what he'd said and why i was stopping lessons. The reply I got was really encouraging, him saying he'd never really thought about it before, would not be repeating that stuff in future and that he was sorry cos he liked me and never knew jews could be just normal people like me etc. In the end i'm glad i didn't have the 'guts' to respond with maximum drama at the moment it was happening.

Reminds me of the driving instructor in Happy Go Lucky

 

[Edie]

My youngest whose 13 is very into conspiracy theories, the fringes of reasonable politics including the alt-right, Jordan Peterson type people, the world of organised crime and famous villains and con artists, and the out there bits of religions. Some of the shit he comes out with is proper bonkers and he’ll try and argue black is white just for the kicks. I try to get him to think critically about stuff, but sometimes I just laugh.

 

[Humirax]

Rabbit holes you say....:



Icke's making a life-story film, and crowd-funding it of course. There's a trailer up. There's a moment that's quite moving, when he talks about the ridicule he received (and iirc his family received) after his Wogan interview. The rest is crap...

He looks and sounds like he drinks a lot.

Icke is one of the few people left who still believes that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion conspiracy theory is true. Apparently most on the far-right don't believe in it anymore but he does.

 

[Rsf]

IMO anyway. Anyone promotiing this shit deserves physical violence so unrelenting, pitiless scorn and contempt is actually doing the fuckers a favour.

Agree with you. My previous driving teacher is the last time this really came up for me: I didn't have the courage to speak at the time but sent him a long text afterwards explaining what was wrong with what he'd said and why i was stopping lessons. The reply I got was really encouraging, him saying he'd never really thought about it before, would not be repeating that stuff in future and that he was sorry cos he liked me and never knew jews could be just normal people like me etc. In the end i'm glad i didn't have the 'guts' to respond with maximum drama at the moment it was happening.

Violence is never the right thing. What you did is actually the right thing, but you already know that. You listened to what someone else said and then after consideration gave a reasonable response which, by the sounds of things, caused them to reflect and re-examine things. If you actually want to change minds that is exactly how to do it.

There are a lot of morons here who I would call the ‘looney left’ that are actually intellectually incapable of making rational arguments and have nothing else other than to resort to shaming, violence, oppression and censorship. Does that ever change anyone’s mind? I think not. Those people will likely never achieve anything and are often too thick, to arrogant or to sheltered and privileged to understand that the exact same things they advocate using against others could be used against them by a movement far stronger than they are.

 

[ddraig]

What "rational arguments" do you think you've made yourself?

 

[butchersapron]

You're a fucking mug edie - you really are. PHD idiot.

 

[Rsf]

What "rational arguments" do you think you've made yourself?

I (hope) I have said that whilst we must never demonise an entire religious or ethnic group we must admit that there is a particular problem with grooming gangs that must be addressed. And that while it is a class issue in the sense that lefty councillors and such like would never have permittted it had the victims not been vulnerable working class girls, it is not just a class issue. Not even mostly a class issue. And that free speech is a human right worth struggling for and needs to return to the U.K. despite the determined opposition to free speech from the authoritarian left.

 

[butchersapron]

I (hope) I have said that whilst we must never demonise an entire religious or ethnic group we must admit that there is a particular problem with grooming gangs that must be addressed. And that while it is a class issue in the sense that lefty councillors and such like would never have permittted it had the victims not been vulnerable working class girls, it is not just a class issue. Not even mostly a class issue. And that free speech is a human right worth struggling for and needs to return to the U.K. despite the determined opposition to free speech from the authoritarian left.

Soft thatcher voice.

 

[butchersapron]

That you can only fool one person is encouraging i suppose. You rank rank cunt.

 

[JimW]

I (hope) I have said that whilst we must never demonise an entire religious or ethnic group we must admit that there is a particular problem with grooming gangs that must be addressed.

If you address it your way focusing on religion you'd miss the actually more salient factors like kinship culture and occupation so while you might have the right to talk bollocks it's not helping anyone.

 

[ddraig]

I (hope) I have said that whilst we must never demonise an entire religious or ethnic group we must admit that there is a particular problem with grooming gangs that must be addressed. And that while it is a class issue in the sense that lefty councillors and such like would never have permittted it had the victims not been vulnerable working class girls, it is not just a class issue. Not even mostly a class issue. And that free speech is a human right worth struggling for and needs to return to the U.K. despite the determined opposition to free speech from the authoritarian left.

Do you think there should be consequences for what people say? What do you think you "can't say"?

 

[mojo pixy]

/... free speech is a human right worth struggling for and needs to return to the U.K. despite the determined opposition to free speech from the authoritarian left.

Freedom of Speech has never gone away you numpty. You just don't understand what it is.

By the way I love the bolded bit. Definitely Soft Thatcher Voice, Serious Concerned Eyes