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Tommy Robinson, the court case and (guffaw) 'free speech'

billbond said:
ok it was Rubbish
All propaganda with no substance imho
Click to expand...

Yes, reading that article I really don’t think that they understand the new far right at all. But more telling is the fact that the far left don’t seem to have any self awareness and appear not to have even looked in the mirror. At the moment the far left seem more like a cult that enforces conformity of thinking rather than a genuine political movement. Thanks to the internet and the rise of social media and YouTube, the no platforming, the suppression of certain view points and the silencing of people that worked in the past isn’t going to work so well anymore. It’s simply not possible to prevent people expressing their views online because their views are not actually illegal and being seen trying to suppress them will only spark more people’s interest. This new far right is very different to the old BNP. The BNP were openly racist and homophobic. The new far right are largely neither although they do seem very intolerant to Islam, nationalistic, populist and possibly xenophobic. Take the new For Britain Party for example. That party probably has more members from ethic minorities per capita than the general population as many of the members are ex-Muslims who seem to have legitimate complaints about the way they have been treated since leaving the religion, what is the left’s message to these people? Are they just going to brand them racist and tell them to shut up too? I don’t see that working. Calling someone racist is not really an argument and the word is rapidly losing any potency after the far left threw it around like confetti at a wedding. The grooming gang scandals are very real, it certainly appears that the victims were targeted because of their race (or at least targeted because they came from a different community than their abusers) and also targeted because of their vulnerability. And it’s also pretty clear that the authorities in some places turned a blind eye to it in some cases because they didn’t want to be accused of racism, and because the victims were working class. The signs are that the Labour Party are still seeking to silence those who speak out about it (I’m think of the circumstances in Sarah Champion leaving the front bench). I see a left wing that is no longer capable of facing up to these issues with nothing to offer to the political debate. A left that seems only capable of throwing insults that are rapidly losing their potency and using suppression and silencing that is rapidly losing its effectiveness. I doubt they even could debate the new right to be honest, spending too long in a self reinforcing echo chamber will do that.

So yeah, that article is a joke and the far left and the Labour Party are a joke.
 
Beavis22 said:
Yes, reading that article I really don’t think that they understand the new far right at all. But more telling is the fact that the far left don’t seem to have any self awareness and appear not to have even looked in the mirror. At the moment the far left seem more like a cult that enforces conformity of thinking rather than a genuine political movement. Thanks to the internet and the rise of social media and YouTube, the no platforming, the suppression of certain view points and the silencing of people that worked in the past isn’t going to work so well anymore. It’s simply not possible to prevent people expressing their views online because their views are not actually illegal and being seen trying to suppress them will only spark more people’s interest. This new far right is very different to the old BNP. The BNP were openly racist and homophobic. The new far right are largely neither although they do seem very intolerant to Islam, nationalistic, populist and possibly xenophobic. Take the new For Britain Party for example. That party probably has more members from ethic minorities per capita than the general population as many of the members are ex-Muslims who seem to have legitimate complaints about the way they have been treated since leaving the religion, what is the left’s message to these people? Are they just going to brand them racist and tell them to shut up too? I don’t see that working. Calling someone racist is not really an argument and the word is rapidly losing any potency after the far left threw it around like confetti at a wedding. The grooming gang scandals are very real, it certainly appears that the victims were targeted because of their race (or at least targeted because they came from a different community than their abusers) and also targeted because of their vulnerability. And it’s also pretty clear that the authorities in some places turned a blind eye to it in some cases because they didn’t want to be accused of racism, and because the victims were working class. The signs are that the Labour Party are still seeking to silence those who speak out about it (I’m think of the circumstances in Sarah Champion leaving the front bench). I see a left wing that is no longer capable of facing up to these issues with nothing to offer to the political debate. A left that seems only capable of throwing insults that are rapidly losing their potency and using suppression and silencing that is rapidly losing its effectiveness. I doubt they even could debate the new right to be honest, spending too long in a self reinforcing echo chamber will do that.

So yeah, that article is a joke and the far left and the Labour Party are a joke.
Click to expand...
At least the "far left" know what a paragraph is, sock puppet.
 
existentialist said:
At least the "far left" know what a paragraph is, sock puppet.
Click to expand...

See this is the problem. I’m the first to admit, my writing isn’t great. Does that invalidate my argument? It should be clear enough for anybody who wants too to be able to understand what I’m saying. But you don’t address a word of what I said, just hostile insults. The same mindset on the far left is why they’re losing and failing to stop the rise of the new far right.
 
Beavis22 said:
See this is the problem. I’m the first to admit, my writing isn’t great. Does that invalidate my argument? It should be clear enough for anybody who wants too to be able to understand what I’m saying. But you don’t address a word of what I said, just hostile insults. The same mindset on the far left is why they’re losing and failing to stop the rise of the new far right.
Click to expand...
If you had an argument, your writing style would be less relevant.

As it is, what you have posted was a screed of polemic, full of elisions and generalities. Which meant its complete lack of structure made it look even more like the random noise it is.

ETA: oh, and by the way, while I appreciate that from where you're standing, pretty much everything must look like "far left", trying to slap that label on me is a fairly pointless (and inaccurate) thing to do... ;)
 
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Beavis22 said:
See this is the problem. I’m the first to admit, my writing isn’t great. Does that invalidate my argument? It should be clear enough for anybody who wants too to be able to understand what I’m saying. But you don’t address a word of what I said, just hostile insults. The same mindset on the far left is why they’re losing and failing to stop the rise of the new far right.
Click to expand...
What is this 'new far right'? What are it's central defining characteristics?
 
existentialist said:
If you had an argument, your writing style would be less relevant.

As it is, what you have posted was a screed of polemic, full of elisions and generalities. Which meant its complete lack of structure made it look even more like the random noise it is.

ETA: oh, and by the way, while I appreciate that from where you're standing, pretty much everything must look like "far left", trying to slap that label on me is a fairly pointless (and inaccurate) thing to do... ;)
Click to expand...

I disagree, I think there is a point there and you are just to ideological to see it and really don’t want to see it because it means questioning what you believe. This is just my opinion. I also think that’s partly why the new right could win and why the liberal left establishment could lose. Right now it’s like the old order is breaking down (and has been for about a decade) and a new consensus is yet to arrive. It’s breaking down much faster in Europe granted, but I see signs it’s started here too.
 
Beavis22 said:
Yes, reading that article I really don’t think that they understand the new far right at all. But more telling is the fact that the far left don’t seem to have any self awareness and appear not to have even looked in the mirror. At the moment the far left seem more like a cult that enforces conformity of thinking rather than a genuine political movement. Thanks to the internet and the rise of social media and YouTube, the no platforming, the suppression of certain view points and the silencing of people that worked in the past isn’t going to work so well anymore. It’s simply not possible to prevent people expressing their views online because their views are not actually illegal and being seen trying to suppress them will only spark more people’s interest. This new far right is very different to the old BNP. The BNP were openly racist and homophobic. The new far right are largely neither although they do seem very intolerant to Islam, nationalistic, populist and possibly xenophobic. Take the new For Britain Party for example. That party probably has more members from ethic minorities per capita than the general population as many of the members are ex-Muslims who seem to have legitimate complaints about the way they have been treated since leaving the religion, what is the left’s message to these people? Are they just going to brand them racist and tell them to shut up too? I don’t see that working. Calling someone racist is not really an argument and the word is rapidly losing any potency after the far left threw it around like confetti at a wedding. The grooming gang scandals are very real, it certainly appears that the victims were targeted because of their race (or at least targeted because they came from a different community than their abusers) and also targeted because of their vulnerability. And it’s also pretty clear that the authorities in some places turned a blind eye to it in some cases because they didn’t want to be accused of racism, and because the victims were working class. The signs are that the Labour Party are still seeking to silence those who speak out about it (I’m think of the circumstances in Sarah Champion leaving the front bench). I see a left wing that is no longer capable of facing up to these issues with nothing to offer to the political debate. A left that seems only capable of throwing insults that are rapidly losing their potency and using suppression and silencing that is rapidly losing its effectiveness. I doubt they even could debate the new right to be honest, spending too long in a self reinforcing echo chamber will do that.

So yeah, that article is a joke and the far left and the Labour Party are a joke.
Click to expand...

How are you defining the 'far left'?
 
Beavis22 said:
Yes, reading that article I really don’t think that they understand the new far right at all. But more telling is the fact that the far left don’t seem to have any self awareness and appear not to have even looked in the mirror. At the moment the far left seem more like a cult that enforces conformity of thinking rather than a genuine political movement. Thanks to the internet and the rise of social media and YouTube, the no platforming, the suppression of certain view points and the silencing of people that worked in the past isn’t going to work so well anymore. It’s simply not possible to prevent people expressing their views online because their views are not actually illegal and being seen trying to suppress them will only spark more people’s interest. This new far right is very different to the old BNP. The BNP were openly racist and homophobic. The new far right are largely neither although they do seem very intolerant to Islam, nationalistic, populist and possibly xenophobic. Take the new For Britain Party for example. That party probably has more members from ethic minorities per capita than the general population as many of the members are ex-Muslims who seem to have legitimate complaints about the way they have been treated since leaving the religion, what is the left’s message to these people? Are they just going to brand them racist and tell them to shut up too? I don’t see that working. Calling someone racist is not really an argument and the word is rapidly losing any potency after the far left threw it around like confetti at a wedding. The grooming gang scandals are very real, it certainly appears that the victims were targeted because of their race (or at least targeted because they came from a different community than their abusers) and also targeted because of their vulnerability. And it’s also pretty clear that the authorities in some places turned a blind eye to it in some cases because they didn’t want to be accused of racism, and because the victims were working class. The signs are that the Labour Party are still seeking to silence those who speak out about it (I’m think of the circumstances in Sarah Champion leaving the front bench). I see a left wing that is no longer capable of facing up to these issues with nothing to offer to the political debate. A left that seems only capable of throwing insults that are rapidly losing their potency and using suppression and silencing that is rapidly losing its effectiveness. I doubt they even could debate the new right to be honest, spending too long in a self reinforcing echo chamber will do that.

So yeah, that article is a joke and the far left and the Labour Party are a joke.
Click to expand...

This contains an awful lot of assertions (in reality, I suspect assumptions if not fabrications). Please would you provide some evidence for them?
 
Beavis22 said:
. Take the new For Britain Party for example. That party probably has more members from ethic minorities per capita than the general population as many of the members are ex-Muslims who seem to have legitimate complaints about the way they have been treated since leaving the religion, what is the left’s message to these people? .
Click to expand...

oh really? got any evidence to back up this assertion? When i met them at a stall in bramley they were absolutely a bunch of old, white, far right racist fuckwits - gibbering on about "puppets of soros" and our tommy.
 
butchersapron said:
What is this 'new far right'? What are it's central defining characteristics?
Click to expand...

I have to do parenting stuff now but will try and respond properly later. In the meantime, When this article was written Privilege and Prejudice: Social justice in an age of male confusion
These people and the tommy Robinson’s and Anne Marie types were totally separate, they are merging into a single movement around issues such as free speech. The FLA UKIP types are by far the smaller group, but they could run it as they are the more politically astute.
 
That 'for britain' party, i didn't know it was a thing but um yeah i think its ok to 'just call them racists'.
eg in their manifesto :
- Reduce or abolish inheritance tax'
- ensure immigration from culturally appropriate countries only"
- Remove all Marxist based indoctrination from the classroom
- Require all foreign visitors to have adequate health insurance and all necessary inoculation to prevent eradicated diseases re-entering the UK
- end politicised and multicultural policing and all unofficial practice of Sharia Law"
- Ban the burqa as a security threat'
etc etc :facepalm:
 
bimble said:
That 'for britain' party, i didn't know it was a thing but um yeah i think its ok to 'just call them racists'.
eg in their manifesto :
- Reduce or abolish inheritance tax'
- ensure immigration from culturally appropriate countries only"
- Remove all Marxist based indoctrination from the classroom
- Require all foreign visitors to have adequate health insurance and all necessary inoculation to prevent eradicated diseases re-entering the UK
- end politicised and multicultural policing and all unofficial practice of Sharia Law"
- Ban the burqa as a security threat'
etc etc :facepalm:
Click to expand...

Anne Marie Waters party after splitting from UKIP. Sadly for her UKIP in rapid time have now gone full 'Robinson-ite' and Gerard Batten has stolen her thunder somewhat. One wonders how long Farage can square the circle in all of this? He said a Waters victory in the last leadership would mean the racists and bigots had taken over. Well Batten is now going right down that road. It is surely a case of call it a day with UKIP or try and take the thing back? Has he got the numbers anymore? Events seems to be passing him by.
 
as amusingly far removed from reality that manifesto is, what the hell are STEMM skills? This is my job and I have no idea what the second M is? As they are bonkers, could it be Military?
 
Beavis22 said:
I disagree, I think there is a point there and you are just to ideological to see it and really don’t want to see it because it means questioning what you believe. This is just my opinion. I also think that’s partly why the new right could win and why the liberal left establishment could lose. Right now it’s like the old order is breaking down (and has been for about a decade) and a new consensus is yet to arrive. It’s breaking down much faster in Europe granted, but I see signs it’s started here too.
Click to expand...
So that's what a nazi salute sounds like. I did wonder...
 
gawkrodger said:
as amusingly far removed from reality that manifesto is, what the hell are STEMM skills? This is my job and I have no idea what the second M is? As they are bonkers, could it be Military?
Click to expand...
Sounds very likely to be this management bollocks.

Realising the goals of rebalancing the British economy, of enhancing our competitiveness requires investment in STEM. But it also requires investing in that capacity which translates invention into innovation, which transforms a groundbreaking discovery into a world-beating business. There is a need to move from investment narrowly focused on STEM to being about investment in STEMM where Management is as core to the policy discourse as Science and Engineering. Rebalancing this discourse is critical to rebalancing the economy of the future.
Click to expand...
 
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Beavis22 said:
I disagree, I think there is a point there and you are just to ideological to see it and really don’t want to see it because it means questioning what you believe. This is just my opinion. I also think that’s partly why the new right could win and why the liberal left establishment could lose. Right now it’s like the old order is breaking down (and has been for about a decade) and a new consensus is yet to arrive. It’s breaking down much faster in Europe granted, but I see signs it’s started here too.
Click to expand...
i hate to break it to you but the uk is in europe
 
Kaka Tim said:
oh really? got any evidence to back up this assertion? When i met them at a stall in bramley they were absolutely a bunch of old, white, far right racist fuckwits - gibbering on about "puppets of soros" and our tommy.
Click to expand...
I think he, Beavis , has got carried away with this picture
DP9QHrYWsAA4sU6.jpg
 
multople tenant occupancies aren't the sole preserve of students in this day and age either, plenty of house shares for shift workers etc. And I mean houseshares, not a terraced converted to two flats.
 
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