Tommy Robinson, the court case and (guffaw) 'free speech'

[Magnus McGinty]

it may be culturally working class - but these are areas with higher levels of home ownership and income than the big council estates in the cites. "Working class" when talking about support for the far right - or things like UKIP seem to be constantly reduced to a narrow demographic (i guess marketeers would class them as c1s and c2s) who are in no way representative of " the working class" as a whole - white or otherwise.

Social housing has been decimated meaning people have to buy or rent privately - and where do you imagine those houses are?

 

[Kaka Tim]

fuckwitted and disgraceful because you're making sweeping statements about whole communities based on your own prejudices and assumptions.

i wasn't talking about whole communities. i was talking about the xenophobes and racists who live there. And - slight tangent but relevant - what communities? what does that mean? part of the problem is the increasing atomisation of society and the commuter belt/"blue collar suburbia" type places are the places with less idea, sense of community - hence the fear and suspicion and social media fulled "communities of interest" forming around far right and conspiracy stuff.

 

[Pickman's model]

i wasn't talking about whole communities. i was talking about the xenophobes and racists who live there. And - slight tangent but relevant - what communities? what does that mean? part of the problem is the increasing atomisation of society and the commuter belt/"blue collar suburbia" type places are the places with less idea, sense of community - hence the fear and suspicion and social media fulled "communities of interest" forming around far right and conspiracy stuff.

yeh. well, we'll have to agree to disagree about what you said. returning to the slum clearances, whole communities were moved out to the outskirts of london, to e.g. the becontree estate, to harold hill, for large numbers of people it very much wasn't an 'ooh we could move to the country' sort of voluntary thing

 

[krink]

I've been reading Angry White People: Coming Face-to-Face with the British Far Right by Hsiao-Hung Pai that is an accidentally revealing but not very good book about the birth of the edl. The writer is an idiot but gives loads of space to those involved to have their say - importantly to Darren Carroll, Stephen Lennon's uncle and a key player in the early days who has since left due to the far-right gradually taking over - he was the one you always saw with the black and white banner and anti-fascist stuff.

In his telling the two key events that gave the early formation coherence and shape were the police response to the first demo after the choudrey-linked groups led attacks on the anglians homecoming march (which the author believes was a white and muslim led protest, and she is utterly mugged by the man himself in the early pages of the book, then later by CAGE) which was violent and heavy handed, and which then led (in DC's telling) to the anti-asian violence on the second march - the one that people remember.

The second one was the response of the 'anti-fascists' on the first march in birmingham (the one you'll remember that saw the birth of running man) that drew in football types beyond luton in significant numbers for the first time to prepare for attacks on the second brum demo.

There is a decent review in datacide #16.

I didn't even know about the first march. I thought the second was actually the first. A bit cheeky but any chance of a scan of the interesting bits with Darren Carrol (who I recognise but didn't know who he was) ? No problem if too busy, I'll find it in a book shop and have a quick read.

 

[Kaka Tim]

yeh. well, we'll have to agree to disagree about what you said. returning to the slum clearances, whole communities were moved out to the outskirts of london, to e.g. the becontree estate, to harold hill, for large numbers of people it very much wasn't an 'ooh we could move to the country' sort of voluntary thing

I know all that - but the slum clearances were back in 50 and 60s - the people affected would be mostly over 70s by now - and places like west yorkshire and lancashire were not affected in the same way.
See im not sure i buy into the idea that support for the far right is a result of dislocation and alienation of the working class through things like de-industrialisation, "globalisation" and wot not (although that def played a part in the brexit vote).
the people who involved with politicised racism are certainly alienated from a sense of society - but i think that's rooted more in social atomisation combined with fear of cultural changes - they are looking for a shared identity and sense of community through nationalism and scapegoating. Im not convinced that these are the sort of people who have ever been trade unionists or ever belonged to any mythical working class community - more likeyly to be im all right jack, tory voting individualists. you can maybe throw in some "crises of masculinity" arguments as well - standing up to the outsider invaders who are looking to violate our womenfolk etc etc.
cant we just call them " a bunch of racist cunts" and stop making excuses for them?

 

[Ax^]

Could ban football

Seems to linked to most of these groups

 

[Pickman's model]

I know all that - but the slum clearances were back in 50 and 60s - the people affected would be mostly over 70s by now - and places like west yorkshire and lancashire were not affected in the same way.

your bias is showing. as is your ignorance. slum clearances continued into the 1980s.

 

[The39thStep]

The book I found the most useful reading on the EDL was The rise of the Right: English nationalism and the transformation of working-class politics https://www.amazon.co.uk/rise-Right...=1528817591&sr=1-1&keywords=rise+of+the+right.
I think it sets out ( although it does go on a bit in places) a very accurate and useful context for the growth of not only an anti muslim far right but anti liberal left pole of attraction amongst the w/class.

 

[planetgeli]

Second picture down on the left yer man with the knights templar shirt on

Right, what is this shit. Being referenced on a message board is one thing, hearing about them at work today is pretty much a step up.

Quote from colleague to another colleague who is ex-army. "Have you heard of this Knights Templar thing? My brother-in-law lives in the Midlands and he says he's been approached to join. Something about 20,000 ex-squaddies protecting the country, he reckons this Muslim thing is going to blow up and the Knights Templar want to be ready. I don't agree with this racism thing and I don't agree with a lot of what that Tommy Robinson says but I do agree with some of it."

That's pretty much a verbatim quote. Hearing about it in my poxy little backwoods seemed very strange and has made me wonder just how deep this KT stuff goes. Have I just been victim of an unfortunate pocket of racism (because that's what it is, "I'm not racist but...") or is this KT stuff really spreading?

Pickman's model? Anyone?

 

[The39thStep]

I don't agree with a lot of what that Tommy Robinson says but I do agree with some of it."

I have heard this many times over the years unfortunatley from mates or people who I have a bit of time for and otherwise are generally sound. They are otherwise ok and I can sit down and have a proper discussion and a pint with them The other one I hear is 'H 's got a point though hasn't he?'

 

[Shechemite]

Right, what is this shit. Being referenced on a message board is one thing, hearing about them at work today is pretty much a step up.

Quote from colleague to another colleague who is ex-army. "Have you heard of this Knights Templar thing? My brother-in-law lives in the Midlands and he says he's been approached to join. Something about 20,000 ex-squaddies protecting the country, he reckons this Muslim thing is going to blow up and the Knights Templar want to be ready. I don't agree with this racism thing and I don't agree with a lot of what that Tommy Robinson says but I do agree with some of it."

That's pretty much a verbatim quote. Hearing about it in my poxy little backwoods seemed very strange and has made me wonder just how deep this KT stuff goes. Have I just been victim of an unfortunate pocket of racism (because that's what it is, "I'm not racist but...") or is this KT stuff really spreading?

Pickman's model? Anyone?

Growth of conspiracy culture, and of daft identariran type racism (the actual knights Templar being a totem for both these).

It’s unlikely there is a militia of 20,000 ex squaddies though, despite the claims of whatever mental website/YouTube channel your mate has been spending their time o

 

[planetgeli]

It’s unlikely there is a militia of 20,000 ex squaddies though, despite the claims of whatever mental website/YouTube channel your mate has been spending their time o

He's not my mate. The words you've quoted, as I said, are from the brother-in-law of a work colleague. The work colleague, who isn't a mate, is, however, someone I can talk to and reason with. Pretty sure he doesn't watch any mental YouTube channels, or much internet at all. Am concerned because of this. Because he is 'Mr Normal', and this is another illustration of how this dickheadery is infecting some w/c thinking.

 

[MickiQ]

Quote from colleague to another colleague who is ex-army. "Have you heard of this Knights Templar thing? My brother-in-law lives in the Midlands and he says he's been approached to join. Something about 20,000 ex-squaddies protecting the country, he reckons this Muslim thing is going to blow up and the Knights Templar want to be ready. I don't agree with this racism thing and I don't agree with a lot of what that Tommy Robinson says but I do agree with some of it."

Really means
Someone I know, knows someone else who says a dozen of the lads meet up in the pub, get oiled and agree somebody needs to do something about it, not sure what it is but it definitely needs something doing about it by someone.
20,000 is about a quarter of the strength of the serving Army, It effectively is an army, organising a force that size (never mind equipping it) takes a huge amount of time and effort which is why we have an MOD
It certainly can't be done by people having a word with a mate.

 

[Shechemite]

What are you asking planetgeli

There are a number of groups (or blokes with blogs) describing themselves as ‘knights templar’ (it plays off the idea of a Christian militia defending against the infidel).

Could you ask the person you know how he came across the ideas he was spouting?

 

[Pickman's model]

Right, what is this shit. Being referenced on a message board is one thing, hearing about them at work today is pretty much a step up.

Quote from colleague to another colleague who is ex-army. "Have you heard of this Knights Templar thing? My brother-in-law lives in the Midlands and he says he's been approached to join. Something about 20,000 ex-squaddies protecting the country, he reckons this Muslim thing is going to blow up and the Knights Templar want to be ready. I don't agree with this racism thing and I don't agree with a lot of what that Tommy Robinson says but I do agree with some of it."

That's pretty much a verbatim quote. Hearing about it in my poxy little backwoods seemed very strange and has made me wonder just how deep this KT stuff goes. Have I just been victim of an unfortunate pocket of racism (because that's what it is, "I'm not racist but...") or is this KT stuff really spreading?

Pickman's model? Anyone?

a lot of occult types look back to the knights templar, who were a military order in the middle ages until they were suppressed by the king of france around 1310 as they were extremely wealthy and overmighty subjects. the reason they are significant in this context is because of references made to them by breivik (see e.g. here Anders Behring Breivik: The Knights Templar Connection) and because of jim dowson, former funder of the bnp and britain first who now has an organisation called the knights templar international (bbc radio 4 programme here BBC Radio 4 - The Invisible Man of Britain's Far Right)

 

[Pickman's model]

What are you asking planetgeli

There are a number of groups (or blokes with blogs) describing themselves as ‘knights templar’ (it plays off the idea of a Christian militia defending against the infidel).

Could you ask the person you know how he came across the ideas he was spouting?

it's much more than a christian militia against the muslims, it's got connotations of internationalism as the kt were spread throughtout christendom, of the occult, of a secret society... there's a load in this An Encyclopaedia of Occultism

 

[planetgeli]

What are you asking planetgeli

There are a number of groups (or blokes with blogs) describing themselves as ‘knights templar’ (it plays off the idea of a Christian militia defending against the infidel).

Could you ask the person you know how he came across the ideas he was spouting?

I am asking how widespread people think this idea of KT is because Pickman's model pointed out a shirt in a photo from that march and days later, in a tiny part of Wales, I find them being discussed at work.

I thought I'd described (twice now) how the discussion came about at work. My colleague was largely relaying a phone conversation he had had with his brother-in-law, ex-army, who has allegedly been approached to join KT.

 

[Shechemite]

So why don’t you ask your colleague for more info?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I thought Knights Templar were something the truthers held responsible for stuff? Maybe they’ve reclaimed the name. Which is pretty funny.

 

[Shechemite]

it's much more than a christian militia against the muslims, it's got connotations of internationalism as the kt were spread throughtout christendom, of the occult, of a secret society... there's a load in this An Encyclopaedia of Occultism

Indeed, but the resonance for the ‘free tommy’/fla types is likely more mundane.

 

[Pickman's model]

I am asking how widespread people think this idea of KT is because Pickman's model pointed out a shirt in a photo from that march and days later, in a tiny part of Wales, I find them being discussed at work.

I thought I'd described (twice now) how the discussion came about at work. My colleague was largely relaying a phone conversation he had had with his brother-in-law, ex-army, who has allegedly been approached to join KT.

i wouldn't want anything to do with any knights templar thing. the original knights templar were very different from the mob about now (you can read about them in e.g. desmond seward's the monks of war), who are conspiraloon fascists in the main.

 

[Raheem]

KT was also the name of the secret organisation Anders Breivik claimed to belong to.

 

[planetgeli]

So why don’t you ask your colleague for more info?

Because I'm pretty sure he gave as much info this morning as he has and now I'm on a message board where I trust more people will have more and better knowledge. As Pickman's model has.

 

[Pickman's model]

Indeed, but the resonance for the ‘free tommy’/fla types is likely more mundane.

if trying to resurrect a catholic military order answerable only to the pope for purposes of domestic terrorism is mundane, then yes.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

It was something Breivik claimed to belong to. Knew it rung a bell.

Anders Breivik questioned about 'Knights Templar' group

 

[Magnus McGinty]

KT was also the name of the secret organisation Anders Breivik claimed to belong to.

Beaten to it.

 

[planetgeli]

Beaten to it.

A lot earlier. By Pickman's model

 

[Magnus McGinty]

A lot earlier. By Pickman's model

As usual then.

 

[bimble]

if trying to resurrect a catholic military order answerable only to the pope for purposes of domestic terrorism is mundane, then yes.

That might the plan or you know maybe they just want to reminisce about how great the crusades were and wear t shirts with symbols on that make them feel important.

 

[butchersapron]

It's a generic trope about reclaiming the christian west. Paul Ray was kicked out of the edl founders group for arguing this shit - because it's mental

It means nothing.