Tommy Robinson, the court case and (guffaw) 'free speech'

[danny la rouge]

but there is wider support online

I'm not on any actual social media any more (other than U75 and some message app group chats with people I know in rl). But I suspect this is where their strength lies. Memes being shared and so on. Although again I've not seen any actual research.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

its not either or though is it? fascism and the ideas it spreads needs to be confronted whenever it rears its head - and that very often means on the street. and austerity needs to be challenged and overturned. i cant see why you cant do both - and both require different approaches.
The tommy robinson stuff and attendant rise of far right/islamophobic street politics is being studiously ignored by the media (very little coverage of the sat demo - and numbers described as being in the 100s) - but the toxin is out there. We are seeing hysterical and frightening levels of islamophobia that is permeating throughout popular discourse.
And the tories did not like UKIP - it was taking a big bite out of their vote share - hence the brexit referendum and the "hostile environment" stuff.
It also feeds into - and is fed - by the brexit process/debacle - the suspicious, paranoid, racist, nationalist daily mail world view is helps create a climate of acceptability for the likes of robinson - a patriotic brit, bravely taking on the pernicious elitist establishment, speaking truth to power and being punished for it etc etc etc. "Somebody needs to take a stand". "At least hes trying to do something".

Agree with much of that but as usual balance right on coverage is tricky.

Saturday DID get quite a lot in MSM. Certainly far more than many larger demos for stuff like anti austerity.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Just so I don't misunderstand you, you're saying that Tommy Robinson is a household name among 'working class people who aren't in any lefty bubble or part of the organised right'. I'd hate to be complacent, so I'd like to see evidence of this. I mean my first instinct is that this isn't correct, but I'd like to know where the evidence is.

I’m basing it on my experiences of those around me, but I’d be quite surprised if by some fluke my experiences were unique.

 

[danny la rouge]

I’m basing it on my experiences of those around me, but I’d be quite surprised if by some fluke my experiences were unique.

Sure, and I don't disbelieve your first hand experience. But how typical is it?

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

I wonder what role the growth of conspiracy culture has played in all this?

Quite a lot. One problem is that it’s hard to deny the elite and establishment media are full of shit. That doesn’t mean that anything challenging them is automatically better. The red pills often turn out to be blue.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

what are they saying?

That he sounds reasonable. He’s the one willing to talk about grooming gangs that the cops and powers that be ignored etc.

 

[Pickman's model]

I’m basing it on my experiences of those around me, but I’d be quite surprised if by some fluke my experiences were unique.

there are 774 posts (or thereabouts) going back to 2011 mentioning tommy robinson

even here we're not talking about him so much.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Sure, and I don't disbelieve your first hand experience. But how typical is it?

No idea. But something has changed between before when he was fringe and now where he appears to becoming normalised.

 

[danny la rouge]

I wonder what role the growth of conspiracy culture has played in all this?

It would be interesting. And my instinct would be that it's probably an important ingredient. But again I'm completely in the dark about who sympathises with TR, why, and how they came to do so.

 

[Pickman's model]

...and all of four threads


(plus of course mentions on the edl threads)

 

[Magnus McGinty]

there are 774 posts (or thereabouts) going back to 2011 mentioning tommy robinson

even here we're not talking about him so much.

And? There’s a thread hundreds of pages long about the EDL.

 

[Pickman's model]

And? There’s a thread hundreds of pages long about the EDL.

look one post up.

the simple fact of the matter is we were more concerned with the edl and not necessarily tr on the edl thread. much of that is to do with the internal shenanigans, the splits, the humiliations in walthamstow etc. the edl is not synonymous with tommy robinson, you know.

 

[ska invita]

I'm not on any actual social media any more (other than U75 and some message app group chats with people I know in rl). But I suspect this is where their strength lies. Memes being shared and so on. Although again I've not seen any actual research.

The Sun and the Mail give him coverage too I think

 

[butchersapron]

It would be interesting. And my instinct would be that it's probably an important ingredient. But again I'm completely in the dark about who sympathises with TR, why, and how they came to do so.

I don't think it has much to do with producing it - it feeds on pre-existing alienation and dispossession (the things that a class based response needs to address rather than crappy individual behaviour or appearances), then fanning and intensifying it. It parasites on the results of neo-liberalism in the same way as the far-right - without either ever fully understanding why and how we're here. I only brought it up because it was twice mentioned in the not very good smith piece and taffboy posted last as i caught up with the thread.

 

[danny la rouge]

I don't think it has much to do with producing it - it feeds on pre-existing alienation and dispossession (the things that a class based response needs to address rather than crappy individual behaviour or appearances), then fanning and intensifying it. It parasites on the results of neo-liberalism in the same way as the far-right - without either ever fully understanding why and how we're here. I only brought it up because it was twice mentioned in the not very good smith piece and taffboy posted last as i caught up with the thread.

I stopped reading the Smith piece as soon as I clocked who it was.

 

[existentialist]

Genuine question, who is doing it in Leeds, fighting austerity?, because here it has largely come to a stop.

It is good that you are so careful to flag up your genuine questions - that puts all the others in a little more context, even if they do sound exactly like the "genuine" ones.

 

[Pickman's model]

the end of yaxley-lennon's 'enemy of the state' book:


didn't do too well on the keep out of prison aim

 

[treelover]

Agree with much of that but as usual balance right on coverage is tricky.

Saturday DID get quite a lot in MSM. Certainly far more than many larger demos for stuff like anti austerity.

maybe because of the violence, well scuffles, though the cops retreat must have been newsworthy

 

[chilango]

I stopped reading the Smith piece as soon as I clocked who it was.

I read all of it.

At best it didn't add anything that we don't already know.

 

[existentialist]

In fairness 10k or 15k on the streets for the far-right (for any any cause) is certainly a quantitive leap. And a worrying one. Is it yet a qualitative leap though?

TBH, I'd file it under the same heading as Britain Furst getting all those likes on Facebook - it's a populist message which, on the surface, looks like a valid cause worth fighting for, and for a lot of the kind of people who don't go any further than some kind of instant "bloke put in prison for standing outside a courtroom? That can't be right!" reaction, it will have some appeal. And, once that reaction's been had, pointing out that the twat's a far right mover and shaker and generally antisocial bit of cuntitude then tends to look - to the uninformed - like an attempt to support that terrible act by a bit of ad hominem - "Well, even so, nobody should be shut down for wanting to report the truth - this is a free country".

It won't take very long for the truth to sink in to the vast majority of those people, who will then shuffle off, embarrassedly, and quietly hope that everyone forgets that they showed him any support.

 

[Pickman's model]

maybe because of the violence, well scuffles, though the cops retreat must have been newsworthy

why must the cops' retreat have been newsworthy?

why do you never substantiate your claims?

 

[Pickman's model]

TBH, I'd file it under the same heading as Britain Furst getting all those likes on Facebook - it's a populist message which, on the surface, looks like a valid cause worth fighting for, and for a lot of the kind of people who don't go any further than some kind of instant "bloke put in prison for standing outside a courtroom? That can't be right!" reaction, it will have some appeal. And, once that reaction's been had, pointing out that the twat's a far right mover and shaker and generally antisocial bit of cuntitude then tends to look - to the uninformed - like an attempt to support that terrible act by a bit of ad hominem - "Well, even so, nobody should be shut down for wanting to report the truth - this is a free country".

It won't take very long for the truth to sink in to the vast majority of those people, who will then shuffle off, embarrassedly, and quietly hope that everyone forgets that they showed him any support.

anyone who threw something at a cop on that demo will almost certainly avoid any subsequent demonstration because the cops will be lifting people at any future tr demo.

 

[chilango]

No idea. But something has changed between before when he was fringe and now where he appears to becoming normalised.

I think looking at what has changed, and what hasn't, will be useful.

..and I think whilst he may be becoming normalised, he's not there yet. I would expect to hear the sentiments you report from some of the people I know. I haven't yet.

 

[treelover]

It is good that you are so careful to flag up your genuine questions - that puts all the others in a little more context, even if they do sound exactly like the "genuine" ones.

Good grief nothing to do with that, its because one gets so many hostile responses on here(not just me) as this one shows, I just wanted a considered reply, not snark..

 

[treelover]

why must the cops' retreat have been newsworthy?

why do you never substantiate your claims?

retreating cops, is newsworthy, you don't think it is?

or is just snark again, ffs.

 

[Pickman's model]

Good grief nothing to do with that, its because one gets so many hostile responses on here(not just me) as this one shows, I just wanted a considered reply, not snark..

when you show yourself able to provide a considered reply perhaps you'll attract less snark. but for as long as you insist on offering nothing but snark it is no surprise you get snark served back.

 

[Pickman's model]

retreating cops, is newsworthy, you don't think it is?

or is just snark again, ffs.

no, why do YOU think cops retreating is newsworthy?

 

[butchersapron]

I've been reading Angry White People: Coming Face-to-Face with the British Far Right by Hsiao-Hung Pai that is an accidentally revealing but not very good book about the birth of the edl. The writer is an idiot but gives loads of space to those involved to have their say - importantly to Darren Carroll, Stephen Lennon's uncle and a key player in the early days who has since left due to the far-right gradually taking over - he was the one you always saw with the black and white banner and anti-fascist stuff.

In his telling the two key events that gave the early formation coherence and shape were the police response to the first demo after the choudrey-linked groups led attacks on the anglians homecoming march (which the author believes was a white and muslim led protest, and she is utterly mugged by the man himself in the early pages of the book, then later by CAGE) which was violent and heavy handed, and which then led (in DC's telling) to the anti-asian violence on the second march - the one that people remember.

The second one was the response of the 'anti-fascists' on the first march in birmingham (the one you'll remember that saw the birth of running man) that drew in football types beyond luton in significant numbers for the first time to prepare for attacks on the second brum demo.

There is a decent review in datacide #16.

 

[Kaka Tim]

Ok - so you’re speculating about a bunch of people based on how they look, in other words from photos you’ve seen. Where as I’m talking about how he’s now mentioned amongst people I know: on social media, in the pub, at work etc.

im basing it on the people i know and meet who are - or are likely to be - tommy botherers. and how they look is part of it as well - the clothes, the st georges flags, the puffed up machismo - its a self-conscious image. See ive lived and worked in some of the poorest areas of leeds and bradford for nearly 20 years - and its not there where these fuck nuts tend to come from. Its from "im all right jack" suburbia.

 

[existentialist]

Good grief nothing to do with that, its because one gets so many hostile responses on here(not just me) as this one shows, I just wanted a considered reply, not snark..

And how successful do you think that's been?

I don't think you get snark for the genuineness or otherwise of your questions: most of the snark (definitely including mine) arises from the way in which you seem to position yourself as somehow morally superior, and ask a lot of (undoubtedly "genuine") rhetorical questions about how little everyone else is doing to solve the problems you perceive as existing, alongside rather a lot of unevidenced speculation about it.